White County changing radio system

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SCPD

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I know Helen PD has a set of "digital" radios of some nature. Every officer said they don't work well. Helen FD is supposed to get a "demo" period with them as soon as HPD decides they are done with their "demo".... Thats what I know..
 

bobbobber

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No this is a MotoTRBO repeater that was set up on Long Mountain for use by Mobile Comm of Gainesville.

It may be of great interest to those who monitor communications and live in White County to know that the 911 director and a sheriff deputy, along with a fire captain, are on a panel looking for a new, un-monitorable radio system.

They have been trying out MotoTRBO upon recommendation of the local Mobile Comm salesman. Of course, this will leave White County without the ability to communicate with any other service unless they use patches or borrow radios, as the current idea is to go VHF MotoTRBO and not a P25 compatible radio system.

So much for interop, unless they want to talk to McDuffie County dog catchers? So much for talking to P25 forestry. I guess it's back to analog, but wait, the salesman said that analog was "illegal" after 2012. Hmmm....

The salesman has been telling White County that they must go to a digital system by 2012, which we know isn't true. As far as I can tell, other county agencies have not been asked for input (EMS, Helen FD, Cleveland) but maybe they have. Some members may be aware of this.

Besides MotoTRBO not being approved for public safety use and being completely proprietary, it does have its advantages, mostly being the cheapest digital system out there. I would prefer to not go in a house fire with the cheapest radio, a radio that has been designed for hotels and casinos. But that is not our, the end-users, decision. White County can and should do so much better, but I guess we won't.

Some firefighters, EMTs and others who monitor radio reference should really be talking to their counterparts and have a say in this manner. Why more experts in White County are not being consulted is besides me, but it is concerning to make such a short-sighted investment to say the least.

As far as being unmonitorable, though, this selling point should be addressed. There is only a 10 digit ADP code for "encryption" if they choose it, but more importantly a data card on a computer can decipher the proprietary digital format. Besides that, radios are easy to program and guess with only a small amount of system knowledge. So I'm not sure that their intent to keep outsiders out is really going to work out for them either without going to a different system.

Audio wise, as U4ia420 stated about current reviewers, the system they are talking about deploying has arguably the worst digital audio of any of the radio systems marketed. Again, they are for casinos, businesses and hotels. Not for use in public safety or mission critical systems, and if you don't believe that just look at their own advertising.

Anyway, best of luck to anyone with a voice and time to talk amongst yourselves. Maybe some knowledgeable RR watchers should make themselves visible in discussions if the director has to go to the commissioners and sell this to our unwitting government.
 

SCPD

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Its my understanding that Hall Co.'s tower is to provide coverage for the north end of Hall Co. I know a few members of White Co. Fire have P25 radios to communicate with Hall Co. on mutual aid calls. The scuttlebutt that I have heard is that we are getting a VHF p25 MotoTRBO system. I really hope thats not true..
 

bobbobber

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MotoTRBO is not P25, so we will be able to talk to no one in the area except analog VHF. But I have a feeling that our county has been told that analog is not able to be used in the future, only digital. Which is not true.

But as long as we get a subpar system that can't talk to anyone, it's a great deal?
 

1268

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Its my understanding that Hall Co.'s tower is to provide coverage for the north end of Hall Co. I know a few members of White Co. Fire have P25 radios to communicate with Hall Co. on mutual aid calls. The scuttlebutt that I have heard is that we are getting a VHF p25 MotoTRBO system. I really hope thats not true..
I can tell you that your 911 director was with the one from Jackson and there looking to switch to a MotoTRBO system The sell I heard is that there is grant money for radios out there and at least in Jackson there selling it as the best thing since white bread.
 

bobbobber

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I was under the impression that since MotoTRBO is non-P25, that grant money was not authorized for it.

I think other radios may be able to use the TDMA dual slot format that motoTRBO uses, and therefore is not proprietary as I stated earlier. Either way, our county experts may be about to make a poor decision, and not get the federal support they are hoping for.

P25 CAI is the way to go, with a better AMBE vocoder - not the old 1990s IMBE Motorola vocoder. Tate, Thales, BK, Icom, Kenwood, EF Johnson, all make better P25 VHF radios that would do so much more with far superior voice quality than Hall County's old IMBE Motorola vocoder. Listen on Cobb's system of the non-motorola p25 radios (City of Marietta for instance) compared to Motorola's. Talk to some of the cities who have compared the products. If they buy any other brand than Motorola P25 they will do so much better, but the salesman will not allow that and it seems the people that should know this, in fact do not know this.
 
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Boy are they in for a surprise - they aren't getting a dime from the federal government. Directly from Safecom 2010:

http://www.safecomprogram.gov/NR/rd...FECOM_Recommended_Guidance__111809__Final.pdf

"Land Mobile Radio Systems
All new digital voice systems must be compliant with the Project 25 (P25) suite of standards.
This requirement is intended for government-owned or -leased digital land mobile public
safety radio equipment. This requirement does not apply to commercial voice services that
offer other types of voice interoperability solutions.
To ensure encrypted interoperability, the P25 suite of standards references the use of
Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) in the Project 25 Block Encryption Protocol,
ANSI/TIA-102.AAD. Entities pursuing encrypted communications capabilities must be
compliant with the P25 Block Encryption Protocol.
This guidance does not preclude funding for non-P25 equipment when there are compelling
reasons for using other solutions. Funding requests by agencies to replace or add radio
equipment to an existing non-P25 system (such as procuring new portables for an existing
analog system) will be considered if there is an explanation for how such equipment will
improve interoperability or support eventual migration to interoperable systems. Absent
these compelling reasons, P25 equipment will be required for LMR systems to which the
standards apply."
 

N8IAA

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bobbobber;1299063 So much for talking to P25 forestry..[/QUOTE said:
OK, what P-25 forestry in GA????? Give up the frequencies:) Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.
The thing that bothers me the most, is that these county officials don't even go and do a simple Google search to see if what the sales people are saying is the truth. The only thing required by 2012, is that radios need to be on narrow band fm. Period. BAH!
Larry
 

1268

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OK, what P-25 forestry in GA????? Give up the frequencies:) Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.
The thing that bothers me the most, is that these county officials don't even go and do a simple Google search to see if what the sales people are saying is the truth. The only thing required by 2012, is that radios need to be on narrow band fm. Period. BAH!
Larry
BINGO ! But there using we can't find parts..cough whine cry..hard to maintain cough cough for an excuse. While the Moto salesman finds new ways to make it work.
They can't afford to join Hall county so ..boom here comes somemore black magic :mad:
 

bobbobber

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US Forestry Hot Shots and wildfire guys are using digital P25, same frequencies for the Southeast Compact and others during wildland operations. Those are available online. 168.775 I haven't heard from in a while but haven't been up there recently. Last wildfire there was a mix of P25 and analog, but one of their commo guys told me they were transitioning to digital only as fast as they can with good success so far (these guys had BK digital radios). They also were heard on 154.280 with some guys from Lumpkin and Forsyth County's wildland contingent.

Georgia Forestry is of course still analog, haven't heard anything new there.
 

N8IAA

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US Forestry Hot Shots and wildfire guys are using digital P25, same frequencies for the Southeast Compact and others during wildland operations. Those are available online. 168.775 I haven't heard from in a while but haven't been up there recently. Last wildfire there was a mix of P25 and analog, but one of their commo guys told me they were transitioning to digital only as fast as they can with good success so far (these guys had BK digital radios). They also were heard on 154.280 with some guys from Lumpkin and Forsyth County's wildland contingent.

Georgia Forestry is of course still analog, haven't heard anything new there.
168.775/pl 136.5 has been active especially with the red flag days we've been having. I'll have to put 154.28 into the 106 along with the SE Compact freqs. Thank you sir:)
Larry
 

MTS2000des

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No this is a MotoTRBO repeater that was set up on Long Mountain for use by Mobile Comm of Gainesville.

It may be of great interest to those who monitor communications and live in White County to know that the 911 director and a sheriff deputy, along with a fire captain, are on a panel looking for a new, un-monitorable radio system.

They have been trying out MotoTRBO upon recommendation of the local Mobile Comm salesman. Of course, this will leave White County without the ability to communicate with any other service unless they use patches or borrow radios, as the current idea is to go VHF MotoTRBO and not a P25 compatible radio system.

So much for interop, unless they want to talk to McDuffie County dog catchers? So much for talking to P25 forestry. I guess it's back to analog, but wait, the salesman said that analog was "illegal" after 2012. Hmmm....

The salesman has been telling White County that they must go to a digital system by 2012, which we know isn't true. As far as I can tell, other county agencies have not been asked for input (EMS, Helen FD, Cleveland) but maybe they have. Some members may be aware of this.

Besides MotoTRBO not being approved for public safety use and being completely proprietary, it does have its advantages, mostly being the cheapest digital system out there. I would prefer to not go in a house fire with the cheapest radio, a radio that has been designed for hotels and casinos. But that is not our, the end-users, decision. White County can and should do so much better, but I guess we won't.

Some firefighters, EMTs and others who monitor radio reference should really be talking to their counterparts and have a say in this manner. Why more experts in White County are not being consulted is besides me, but it is concerning to make such a short-sighted investment to say the least.

As far as being unmonitorable, though, this selling point should be addressed. There is only a 10 digit ADP code for "encryption" if they choose it, but more importantly a data card on a computer can decipher the proprietary digital format. Besides that, radios are easy to program and guess with only a small amount of system knowledge. So I'm not sure that their intent to keep outsiders out is really going to work out for them either without going to a different system.

Audio wise, as U4ia420 stated about current reviewers, the system they are talking about deploying has arguably the worst digital audio of any of the radio systems marketed. Again, they are for casinos, businesses and hotels. Not for use in public safety or mission critical systems, and if you don't believe that just look at their own advertising.

Anyway, best of luck to anyone with a voice and time to talk amongst yourselves. Maybe some knowledgeable RR watchers should make themselves visible in discussions if the director has to go to the commissioners and sell this to our unwitting government.
Current MotoTRBO subscriber radios support analog or digital by mode operation, programmable in CPS so your statement about them not being able to operate with surrounding agencies who are still on conventional VHF is untrue.

I don't recommend MotoTRBO for public safety as it lacks even basic APCO-16 compliance but I can see why many users are willing to give it a shot. They want "digital" because salesman have convinced them that in 2013, their otherwise perfectly capable modern narrowband capable subscriber radios and infrastructure will melt into a pile of molten rotted plastic and the FCC will be at the ready with HK MP5's with orders to shoot on site anyone who transmits a wideband or analog carrier between 30MHz and 512MHz so they'd better do it NOW.
 

SCPD

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I have brought all of this information to my superiors. They are all a little stunned but not surprised. A lot of questions are about to get asked about this MotoTRBO decision.
 

CSHIFTLT

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Current MotoTRBO subscriber radios support analog or digital by mode operation, programmable in CPS so your statement about them not being able to operate with surrounding agencies who are still on conventional VHF is untrue.

I don't recommend MotoTRBO for public safety as it lacks even basic APCO-16 compliance but I can see why many users are willing to give it a shot. They want "digital" because salesman have convinced them that in 2013, their otherwise perfectly capable modern narrowband capable subscriber radios and infrastructure will melt into a pile of molten rotted plastic and the FCC will be at the ready with HK MP5's with orders to shoot on site anyone who transmits a wideband or analog carrier between 30MHz and 512MHz so they'd better do it NOW.
I am lost?
Where does any state/federal document say you cannot transmit/receive in "ANALOG"? after 2013.
cshiftlt
 

SCPD

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it doesn't.. our EMA director is apparently under the impression that it does and is about to make a big mistake with tax payer money and the lives of law enforcement officers and firefighters.
 

MTS2000des

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I am lost?
Where does any state/federal document say you cannot transmit/receive in "ANALOG"? after 2013.
cshiftlt
it doesn't, but yet many consultants and salesmen employed by certain vendors will tell their customers otherwise. they will also claim that narrowband analog will give you a loss of radio coverage, degraded performance, and subpar audio.

yet of the many narrowbanded systems that have migrated from wideband none have come forward and publicly complained unlike the case with P25 phase I.
 

nunyax

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Walton County, GA
White County now has a pending application with the FCC to update their WNIJ945 license with the MOTOTRBO emission designator (submitted 9/16.) They may be getting closer to switching.
 

W4JLR

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Follow the Money boys! Actually I have heard that Narrow banding is getting closer to being finished. That is all that is Law between now and 2013.
 
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