Why do you all enjoy using DMR?

[BMDaug]

While I don't necessarily disagree....HF is still the place to be. Been doing Field Day for almost 30 years, and our club operates in local parks at least once, sometimes twice a month in the nice weather months. You know where people aren't? VHF/UHF, with the exception of satellites. At all these events we do, with reasonable amounts of public interest, everybody is at the HF stations, or the satellite stations. Nobody cares about the VHF/UHF stations and using a radio to talk a couple towns away. Even talking around the world is less interesting for folks, considering the internet and cell phones, but the HF stations are still packed with both operators and visitors. At Field Day this year, I made probably a dozen contacts on the VHF station, only because I would walk by the station after getting another hamburger and margarita, and got tired of all the poor souls (likely newer techs. or such) calling CQ with nobody answering back. I legitimately felt bad for them.

I wasn’t going to reply in this thread anymore, but I want to remind everyone of one important thing. Technicians are very limited as to the bands they can operate. The folks on V/UHF working a field day are likely looking to move up to general class. It’s important for the ham community as a whole that they have a positive experience. If you want them on HF, you should help cultivate that experience. Not because you feel bad for them, but because you truly want them to experience what HF has to offer.

I know multiple technicians that are testing for their general next month and they had to start somewhere! Operating V/U allows folks to practice etiquette and gain confidence. When I got my license, a lack of confidence was my biggest roadblock to operating HF. Working V/U simplex and local repeaters let me learn the ropes… how to talk to people, the jargon, the etiquette, and eventually I did feel confident enough to make those HF contacts. Maybe it came naturally to you, but if I don’t feel I can do something well, it terrifies me to even try.

So keep enjoying HF, it’s a lot of fun! But remember that keeping the hobby alive means that sometimes you have to set the snobbery aside and help a fellow ham become something greater. That’s what an Elmer does!

-B

 

[mmckenna]

Hotspots do take for granted the fact that there is major infrastructure in place and (privately owned) BM servers operate within the confines of that infrastructure.

Hmmmm, sounds almost like you are describing APRS and its partial dependence on the internet… I guess that makes APRS not 'real' ham radio either.

 

[alcahuete]

The folks on V/UHF working a field day are likely looking to move up to general class.

All our technicians were working HF, either 10m, using their CW privileges on HF, or working under a suitable control operator. Most of them wanted to try something new.

VHF/UHF, like I said, was largely manned by folks passing by the station while getting a hamburger or another drink.

I mentored one Tech. at Field Day and helped him bust a pile-up for an 11,000 mile 20m SSB contact to Africa, using 100w. He upgraded to General less than a month later.

I'm perfectly fine with the lifetime Techs. and those folks who want to work VHF/UHF forever. That's all some people want to do, and I'm perfectly fine with that. Knock yourself out.

I was simply responding to the post about HF. The plain fact is that HF is absolutely where it's at, when it comes to general interest.

 

[BMDaug]

Hmmmm, sounds almost like you are describing APRS and its partial dependence on the internet… I guess that makes APRS not 'real' ham radio either.

Except that the initial concept of APRS did not require the internet at all. APRS was conceptualized as a local tactical mesh network and if that mesh network were to achieve 100% coverage for a given area, be it a state, country, continent, or the whole world, APRS-IS would not technically be necessary.

-B

 

[BMDaug]

Hmmmm, sounds almost like you are describing APRS and its partial dependence on the internet… I guess that makes APRS not 'real' ham radio either.

Also, I never said hotspots were not real ham radio… I completely support their use so long as their limitations are understood, which I think is abundantly obvious to most users.

-B

 

[mmckenna]

Also, I never said hotspots were not real ham radio… I completely support their use so long as their limitations are understood, which I think is abundantly obvious to most users.

-B

I was agreeing with you. APRS can absolutely work all RF. A lot of users, however, want the iGates and use the internet to track other hams. Again, something that utilizes infrastructure not built by/for hams and reliant on carrier based infrastucture.

I have no problems with hotspots. I don't use them myself, but I have no issues if someone else does. I don't like to see the hobby crammed into a little box with carefully defined dimensions. That doesn't lead to any advancement of the hobby or technology.

 

[ur20v]

This discussion reminds me of the reaction you get from some, ok, *most* people when you tell them you talk on ham radio/CB/GMRS, or the reason so many give for the nosedive in popularity of two-way radio hobbies... "Why??? You know we have the internet, right?"

Think of it as ham radio's way of trying to remain relevant in the 21st century, or to try and entice lazy people into the hobby who are used to instant gratification and not actually having to put effort into an activity to be successful!

It's not my cup of tea, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. I just hope it stays off my local repeaters and I hope they remain unlinked as well - yet another peeve of mine. Yuck.

 

[BMDaug]

This discussion reminds me of the reaction you get from some, ok, *most* people when you tell them you talk on ham radio/CB/GMRS, or the reason so many give for the nosedive in popularity of two-way radio hobbies... "Why??? You know we have the internet, right?"

Think of it as ham radio's way of trying to remain relevant in the 21st century, or to try and entice lazy people into the hobby who are used to instant gratification and not actually having to put effort into an activity to be successful!

It's not my cup of tea, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. I just hope it stays off my local repeaters and I hope they remain unlinked as well - yet another peeve of mine. Yuck.

I think that if the local repeaters see traffic as they are, and especially if they have a culture, then linking that repeater can ruin something great! But, if there are repeaters around me that go days with only a couple of conversations, linking can renew interest in their use. It’s a balance for sure and I totally understand your sentiment! It’s also nice when there are a handful of repeaters around you and half are linked and half aren’t as is the situation here.

@mmckenna and @alcahuete sorry guys, I kinda went on the offensive there and misinterpreted your posts! Great discussion for sure!!!

-Brian

 

[Thorndike113]

While I don't necessarily disagree....HF is still the place to be. Been doing Field Day for almost 30 years, and our club operates in local parks at least once, sometimes twice a month in the nice weather months. You know where people aren't? VHF/UHF, with the exception of satellites. At all these events we do, with reasonable amounts of public interest, everybody is at the HF stations, or the satellite stations. Nobody cares about the VHF/UHF stations and using a radio to talk a couple towns away. Even talking around the world is less interesting for folks, considering the internet and cell phones, but the HF stations are still packed with both operators and visitors. At Field Day this year, I made probably a dozen contacts on the VHF station, only because I would walk by the station after getting another hamburger and margarita, and got tired of all the poor souls (likely newer techs. or such) calling CQ with nobody answering back. I legitimately felt bad for them.

And that is why I don't understand why many hams for decades now complain that the FCC is threatening to take certain ham bands away. They aren't taking anything away on HF. Don't worry about it. If they take anything, it is going to be everything above 30 MHz. Ham Radio IS HF. You are correct, HF is packed with activity. I refuse to get into it for quite a few reasons.
1- it isn't viable when going mobile. I have a hard enough time finding enough metal area on my car for 2 meters and GMRS.
2- Its not local. I don't care about someone in Europe. I do care about my neighbors, especially in an Emergency Situation.
3-I hate contesting and I hate sitting there aimlessly making contacts just to chat for 45 seconds and move on to the next. That's about as bad as watching TikTok videos.
4 - The antennas are enormous in size and I don't have that sort of room around here. The equipment is also outrageously expensive. If I had to dump that amount of money into radio, I would buy a fully functioning GMRS repeater AND its accessories and have it installed on a commercial communications tower for that amount of money. At least I would be able to communicate with family and friends, something I cant do on Ham.
5 - Unlike my local bands where I can talk instantly to who I want, On HF, you are subject to band conditions. I have enough issue fighting the RF sewer I live in, I am not wasting what little valuable time I have fighting band conditions.

For me, I want to communicate and I don't want to fight to communicate. If you hand me a radio, that radio had better do what it was intended to do or else it has about the same worth as the trash I put on the curb each week. That's me though. I know a lot of people love talking around the world and like I said, to each their own. When it comes to all the new modes on the bands above 30 MHz, if you can get enough hams to claim that that is NOT ham radio, I seriously think the FCC should take it away and turn it into another hobby like Ham radio but for those who want to move forward, not contest all day and night. Leave it for those getting into the radio field doing work in Commercial communications. Something to experiment with new technologies before they become mainstream. Current Ham operators interested in it could still join in if they wanted, but this way, the new technology wouldn't "taint" the ham radio image.

 

[Thorndike113]

Some of the coolest aspects of ham radio are only available above 30MHz. Controlling satellites, ATV/DATV, and long range drone piloting are three big ones that come to mind. I get the point you are trying to make and like I said previously, this is a stereotype that just needs to die… that old hams only value HF. For some, HF is all they personally enjoy, but the ones I hang with still respect and value every band and look for ways to use those bands to learn and have fun!

I’m in a great club and even though I’m the youngest by a pretty good margin, our members are into ATV, digital modes, and one even helped build out the Colorado DTRS! As a general class operator with pretty much full access to HF, I highly value the VHF and UHF bands and love to explore P25, my favorite digital mode. I’m in the process of securing a site to put my P25C repeater and am really excited about using my hotspot to create a P25 trunked site! Hotspots and V/UHF are important to the hobby so hams can explore the cutting edge communication methods you are talking about!

Your sarcasm is frustrating because it’s based on a bad stereotype. I understand the sentiment, but I kinda resent it because if I weren’t a ham, I wouldn’t have ever gotten into radio at all and would have never found commercial LMR, something I’m now growing into a business. Being dragged down to HF is a choice. If it’s not your bag, just don’t do it!

-B

You are one of a few that I have heard this from. Most Hams I come across despise the stuff above 30 MHz. They treat it like CB radio and have been for decades now. I see a value in any sort of radio communication even if I don't get into it. HF is definitely not my thing by any means, but I understand its benefit. The issue I have is exactly what I first posted especially with the little "sample conversation" between veteran ham and new ham. Yes, you are right, it is a choice in the end but what happens is that these people who get into ham radio who don't know a thing about it are relying on the older veteran ham operators to tell help them understanding everything. Not telling them that all the action is on HF and to get away from VHF.

I was fortunate to have had an elmer when I first got into ham radio who is to this day an advanced class operator. He focused a lot of time on HF, BUT, he still to this day does a lot with traffic nets on both HF and 2 meters and 440 and would love to one day play with 220. He never tried to coerce me onto HF. He knew it wasn't my thing and he respected that. But he did spend the time showing me all the different things available.

The sad thing is that if you want people to be interested in Ham Radio, try showing them the "new technologies" in Ham Radio. Many new hams are young. Many young people are used to cellular, fiber optic, instant communication type technology. To praise HF is like taking them back to their great grandfathers lifetime as a kid. I have literally NEVER in my years in radio ever heard a ham operator praise any repeaters or tell the new ham about the fusion system going up around the state, or the DMR repeaters in the area, or even the fun you can have on simplex right on the VHF/UHF bands. I actually prefer simplex on the local bands myself. I just don't get to really use it because everyone is on HF. Very few people use local stuff around me on a regular basis. In my area, there is more activity on GMRS so, that's where I hang out more.

 

[AK9R]

You are one of a few that I have heard this from. Most Hams I come across despise the stuff above 30 MHz.

Folks seem to form opinions based on what they experience. If, in your experience, you think that most hams despise radio activity above 30 MHz, I think you may need to find some different hams. Don't form an opinion based on limited exposure.

For example, I know a guy who is near the top of the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll having made contacts with 347 DX entities on CW and 344 on phone. You know what he's doing now? Chasing DX and grids on 6m. In my opinion, he is an exceptional amateur radio operator who has played out just about everything he can do on HF. Two other hams who live near me are chasing grids on 2m because they've lost interest in HF.

Amateur radio is a "big tent". There are an incredible number of things one can do in amateur radio. But, when I see a new ham only talk about getting on DMR, I think maybe they should look around to see what else is out there. And, I think I can speak from experience because for the first 12 years or so of my amateur radio "career", I only used VHF/UHF repeaters, packet, and APRS. What I've learned since then is that there's much more to amateur radio.

Yes, hams can use hot spots and fixed infrastructure, aka the Internet, to talk to other guys who are using hot spots and the Internet. DMR is most certainly amateur radio from the handheld radio to the hot spot. If that's all one does in amateur radio, I think they are missing out. If that's all one wants to do in amateur radio, more power to them.

 

[Thorndike113]

Folks seem to form opinions based on what they experience. If, in your experience, you think that most hams despise radio activity above 30 MHz, I think you may need to find some different hams. Don't form an opinion based on limited exposure.

For example, I know a guy who is near the top of the ARRL DXCC Honor Roll having made contacts with 347 DX entities on CW and 344 on phone. You know what he's doing now? Chasing DX and grids on 6m. In my opinion, he is an exceptional amateur radio operator who has played out just about everything he can do on HF. Two other hams who live near me are chasing grids on 2m because they've lost interest in HF.

Amateur radio is a "big tent". There are an incredible number of things one can do in amateur radio. But, when I see a new ham only talk about getting on DMR, I think maybe they should look around to see what else is out there. And, I think I can speak from experience because for the first 12 years or so of my amateur radio "career", I only used VHF/UHF repeaters, packet, and APRS. What I've learned since then is that there's much more to amateur radio.

Yes, hams can use hot spots and fixed infrastructure, aka the Internet, to talk to other guys who are using hot spots and the Internet. DMR is most certainly amateur radio from the handheld radio to the hot spot. If that's all one does in amateur radio, I think they are missing out. If that's all one wants to do in amateur radio, more power to them.

There is still much more on Ham Radio that can be done. DMR isn't just hotspots. I have thought of using the technology in linking VHF/UHF repeaters wirelessly (non-internet) using DMR on 900MHz or higher. I have always wanted to get into creating a simplex network of bases utilizing the bands above 30MHz. No one does that. I seriously have only gotten little chuckles and grins from hams when trying to talk about this. They will all blow over $10,000 to have the ultimate HF setup, but not a red cent on local communication. All I ever hear guys doing is HF and contesting. That's why I gave up. If a ham comes along who gets into what I get into, I think I will drop dead of shock.

 

[AK9R]

I have thought of using the technology in linking VHF/UHF repeaters wirelessly (non-internet) using DMR on 900MHz or higher.

Are the repeaters that you want to link analog or DMR? If analog, what advantage would there be to linking via DMR?

I wonder if you are running into a geographical situation that seems to bias hams in your area towards HF.

I have heard from contesters, that the big stations on the east coast have a huge advantage when it comes to world-wide contesting because of the distance to Europe. Yes, there are some big contest stations in Maine because that's about as close as you can get to Europe and still be in the U.S.

As for repeaters, it comes down to infrastructure. To put up an effective repeater in the sparsely-populated north woods of Maine, you'd need to get on a tall tower. There probably aren't many of those and the ones that do exist probably charge a pretty penny for tower space. That forces your VHF/UHF repeaters onto shorter towers which of course reduces range which drives you to linking to improve the range. But, you still need some tall towers to support directional antennas for the linking. Or, you link by satellite. Or, you throw a wire up into a tree and talk on HF.

If memory serves, we've had this sort of conversation before. Unfortunately, for you, the geography hasn't changed.

 

[Thorndike113]

Are the repeaters that you want to link analog or DMR? If analog, what advantage would there be to linking via DMR?

I wonder if you are running into a geographical situation that seems to bias hams in your area towards HF.

I have heard from contesters, that the big stations on the east coast have a huge advantage when it comes to world-wide contesting because of the distance to Europe. Yes, there are some big contest stations in Maine because that's about as close as you can get to Europe and still be in the U.S.

As for repeaters, it comes down to infrastructure. To put up an effective repeater in the sparsely-populated north woods of Maine, you'd need to get on a tall tower. There probably aren't many of those and the ones that do exist probably charge a pretty penny for tower space. That forces your VHF/UHF repeaters onto shorter towers which of course reduces range which drives you to linking to improve the range. But, you still need some tall towers to support directional antennas for the linking. Or, you link by satellite. Or, you throw a wire up into a tree and talk on HF.

If memory serves, we've had this sort of conversation before. Unfortunately, for you, the geography hasn't changed.

Oh I thought of an idea to link using DMR as the microwave link between stations and have the repeaters on analog. I know you can cross over because it is in use with other digital modes in the public safety world and it works flawlessly. When it comes to linking, you can actually use any of the bands and have repeaters on any of the bands. A good example, back in my home state in southern new england, I worked for a medical transportation company. They used 2 UHF repeaters. The eastern repeater had to eventually be linked because the base couldnt reach it effectively. The communications company, headed by a ham who did a lot with VHF and UHF linking for other RCC's set up a VHF high band link from the office to his house and crossed it over to UHF out to the repeater. Its a lot of experimenting and working with the terrain. Since I got into radio back in the early 90's I have always been intrigued by this stuff and still am today.

Where I am in Maine, there are quite a few repeaters on short towers on hill/mountain tops and they cover large areas really nicely. Very little activity on most of them unfortunately. HF may be favored because of terrain but honestly, I live in a hole. Most hams around me live much higher than I do and surprisingly, even over some tall hill tops, I can still communicate with a good chunk of them on simplex running only 30 watts, sometimes less, on 2 meters, on a j-pole, 30 feet in the air. VHF hi-band works really well around here. Why it isn't utilized more has me confused. Even 90% or more of the public safety realize its an awesome band as far as coverage.

Its HF. Sadly, its where its at when it comes to ham radio. Hams make it that way. If hams would start spreading out and utilizing other bands, the bands would become active.

 

[popnokick]

So where you are in Maine.... Are you saying this is a waste of time, no good because it was developed by hams, all the hams in Maine only want to use HF, or simply that you never knew this existed? What am I writing about here? AREDN. Here's more... with specific info regarding Maine -

NG1P April 2022 Wireless Mesh Using AREDN
Bill Richardson NG1P presents his views on organizing an AREDN mesh network in Maine at the ARRL Convention in Lewiston, Maine on April 1 and 2, 2022.
The presentation is here.

 

[BMDaug]

So where you are in Maine.... Are you saying this is a waste of time, no good because it was developed by hams, all the hams in Maine only want to use HF, or simply that you never knew this existed? What am I writing about here? AREDN. Here's more... with specific info regarding Maine -

NG1P April 2022 Wireless Mesh Using AREDN
Bill Richardson NG1P presents his views on organizing an AREDN mesh network in Maine at the ARRL Convention in Lewiston, Maine on April 1 and 2, 2022.
The presentation is here.

This is SWEET! Thanks for posting!!

-B

 

[Thorndike113]

So where you are in Maine.... Are you saying this is a waste of time, no good because it was developed by hams, all the hams in Maine only want to use HF, or simply that you never knew this existed? What am I writing about here? AREDN. Here's more... with specific info regarding Maine -

NG1P April 2022 Wireless Mesh Using AREDN
Bill Richardson NG1P presents his views on organizing an AREDN mesh network in Maine at the ARRL Convention in Lewiston, Maine on April 1 and 2, 2022.
The presentation is here.

Honestly, I never knew this existed. The most I know about is the fusion network in Maine, DMR repeater network, and a host of repeaters that don't get much use. Simplex was getting some use but I think everyone went back to 10 meters. I took a look at the map and that's what I am talking about should happen. The ideas I had were using this idea with simplex but possibly lower bands linking for the low lying areas like where I live, but repeaters are just as good. That is an impressive network and it seems easy to do. Easier than what I was thinking. You show that to a lot of hams in the community, and I am not talking specifically Maine, just the ham community, and you can get a lot of backlash as to that not being real ham radio. To me, If you add solar back up at all the repeater sites, as long as nothing damages the site, theoretically, you should have constant repeater coverage without a single interruption should the whole grid go down, especially from a storm., and as far as I know, That's ham radio, ready in an emergency.

The issue on my end is that I live in an RF toilet bowl. I utilize 2 meters not because its what I am used to, its because that is what works best in the area I live when it comes to the terrain. I utilize the bands that will accomplish what I want. If 10 meters did what I wanted and was feasible both portable and mobile, I would use that, same thing if 900 MHz was what worked best. Unfortunately, I have been investing money in GMRS because the only people I communicate with by radio are non hams which leaves me having to rely on cell phones for back up which happen to work the best. If they had a GMRS service that covered VHF, that would be a much better choice when it comes to the bands. When it comes to Ham radio, I rarely do any communicating due to the lack of activity when I am on the radio. I keep it around just in case I need it for communication.

I live in Waldo county. Fortunately about 6 miles from Aborn Hill which works out nice for the repeaters. I can get all three on a portable if I want. There isn't a lot of activity on the repeaters in my area. Once again, at least when I am monitoring it which could be sometimes collectively 6 hours out of a day. Mainly I have 146.52 in my radio both base and mobile and the repeaters in the scanner.

 

[Thorndike113]

So where you are in Maine.... Are you saying this is a waste of time, no good because it was developed by hams, all the hams in Maine only want to use HF, or simply that you never knew this existed? What am I writing about here? AREDN. Here's more... with specific info regarding Maine -

NG1P April 2022 Wireless Mesh Using AREDN
Bill Richardson NG1P presents his views on organizing an AREDN mesh network in Maine at the ARRL Convention in Lewiston, Maine on April 1 and 2, 2022.
The presentation is here.

After sitting down and looking deeply into this, I noticed an active map of the actual stations currently on the air. Its a tiny little cluster in the Brunswick area which is quite a ways south of me. The likelihood of this being built out across the state is probably not likely any time soon. Right now they are in the process of building out a fusion network and have many repeaters online. Sadly, I don't have the funds to put towards that because of GMRS and DMR. Overall, there really isn't much up here for growth in this area. Don't get me wrong, there are hams working on stuff like this but its not going anywhere that I hear of. The most I hear about is Fusion updates. Lewiston, Brunswick and all of those towns are in southern Maine. I live in the Northern Midcoast and have plans of moving farther north one day, so pretty much, unless, I upgrade to General so I can talk to people outside of my state, I will sit where I am. No worries though, GMRS is moving ahead quicker than Ham in the terms of repeaters and people getting licensed. That's why I am putting my eggs in that basket. If the hams get this AREDN built out across Maine, it will be really cool but I just don't see growth on that in my area any time soon.

 

[KG7VG]

But, why DMR in this case? Why not an IRLP hotspot thus making use of long-existing analog technology? Why not use a remote connection to an HF radio? My point is that there are many solutions to your stated problem, not just DMR.

Ehm... the topic is "why do you all enjoy using DMR", not "why do you all enjoy using IRLP".

If I'm not mistaken, a DMR hotspot utilizes the same technology, but in a digital format.
In many cases, IRLP connections are available for use without the hotspot (repeater links, personal nodes, etc.).
Analog is analog and digital is digital. Ask the individual what equipment he / she has. There, you will find the golden answer.
Remote to an HF station assumes proper licensing privileges, budget to afford said remote station and equipment to access it from home. Not everyone is an Extra or General (and what sense would it make for a Tech to have an HF remote station, with limited privileges?). Nor is everyone made of cash to afford the gear.

Yes, there are other options, but we're talking about DMR here, not other modes.

 

[BMDaug]

Ehm... the topic is "why do you all enjoy using DMR", not "why do you all enjoy using IRLP".

If I'm not mistaken, a DMR hotspot utilizes the same technology, but in a digital format.
In many cases, IRLP connections are available for use without the hotspot (repeater links, personal nodes, etc.).
Analog is analog and digital is digital. Ask the individual what equipment he / she has. There, you will find the golden answer.
Remote to an HF station assumes proper licensing privileges, budget to afford said remote station and equipment to access it from home. Not everyone is an Extra or General (and what sense would it make for a Tech to have an HF remote station, with limited privileges?). Nor is everyone made of cash to afford the gear.

Yes, there are other options, but we're talking about DMR here, not other modes.

Are you all using DMR in a very general sense to imply all digital modes? I’m still confused by the question as the DMR standard is a radio mode that can be likened to P25, NXDN, etc. This entire thread I’ve been wondering if the question is ‘why do you enjoy using a hotspot combined with the BM servers?’ or is it ‘why do you enjoy DMR over any other digital (or analog) mode?’.

I think this is @AK9R ’s point as well. The answer to the former is likely ‘I use a hotspot because it’s convenient, and inexpensive, allowing me to talk great distances with little investment in infrastructure’ while the answer to the latter may be ‘I choose DMR over another mode because DMR radios are plentiful and inexpensive when compared to P25 or NXDN’.

DMR is a mode that many commercial operations run in a trunked and sometimes encrypted network with many repeaters and base stations so as to provide site communications for their business operations. This has nothing to do with hotspots at all.

So when posing the question ‘why do you like using DMR?’ the answer for those businesses may be ‘I use DMR because my encrypted, tier III trunked system offers many benefits over our old analog FM system by providing greater band efficiency, allowing us to have twice as many effective voice channels without adding to our commercial FCC license or adding additional repeaters to our already full tower site. It also allows us to better secure our operations by using end to end encryption and allows for better accountability by allowing us to see who’s radio is transmitting using ID aliases.’ THAT’S DMR…

So what are we really discussing here? A mode, or a platform?

-B