Why you won't see an EDACS digital scanner anytime soon!

[sts7]

EDACS Provoice is a proprietary digital system. MA/Com does not allow the licensing of this technology for use in scanners. Uniden would like to make such scanners, but it is not legally possible at this time.

Paul Opitz
Product Manager
Uniden America Corp

This message was a response to a question posed to Uniden by sts7. It was received 6/24/04.

 

[mr_hankey]

hey, that's weird - are you the same sts707 that's selling provoice LPE's on ebay at $1600 a pop?

 

[greenthumb]

:lol:

Anyhow - that's an interesting point. Makes you wonder why Motorola was the first to let the "cat out of the bag" and allow Uniden to make a scanner to properly trunk track Motorola systems?

 

[N_Jay]

:lol:

Anyhow - that's an interesting point. Makes you wonder why Motorola was the first to let the "cat out of the bag" and allow Uniden to make a scanner to properly trunk track Motorola systems?

Or was it reverse engineered?

 

[scannerfreak]

:lol:

Anyhow - that's an interesting point. Makes you wonder why Motorola was the first to let the "cat out of the bag" and allow Uniden to make a scanner to properly trunk track Motorola systems?

Because their (MOT) systems are APCO Project 25 compliant. The info is freely available to anyone who wants it.

They can pay their DVSI licensing fees and have it. Which I imagine is exactly what Uniden and Radio Shack did.

Although M/A Com's Pro-Voice digital uses the same IMBE Vocoder it is slightly different than the APCO standard. That's what makes it proprietary.

M/A Com owns the licensing for it and is not obligated in any way to release or "license" it to anyone. I do agree with precoislen coments in another thread about this, I would like to read the info for myself to see exactly what it is M/A Com has patent.

In short, It wasn't Motorola's decision to "release" the info. It's already there.

Or was it reverse engineered?

There is no need to "reverse engineer" the vocoder, as the IMBE vocoder spec is completely described (as are all technical elements of P25) in the vocoder description document TIA-102.BABA, "Project 25 -- Vocoder Description" so there is no need for reverse engineering, as long as the appropriate IPR licensing fee is paid to DVSI.


I hope I wasn't incorrect on my technical explination as I understand it, but I'm sure someone will let me know if I was! :lol:

 

[N_Jay]

In short, It wasn't Motorola's decision to "release" the info. It's already there.

Or was it reverse engineered?

There is no need to "reverse engineer" the vocoder, as the IMBE vocoder spec is completely described (as are all technical elements of P25) in the vocoder description document TIA-102.BABA, "Project 25 -- Vocoder Description" so there is no need for reverse engineering, as long as the appropriate IPR licensing fee is paid to DVSI.


I hope I wasn't incorrect on my technical explination as I understand it, but I'm sure someone will let me know if I was! :lol:

I would assume that the 3600 BPS control channel was reverse engineered as well as the EDACS control channel.

Do any scanners do ASTRO?

Yes, P25 is an open standard, but it is TIA not Motorola who owns the standard.

DVSI owns the technology in the vocoder. I believe that is the only part technology in the standard that is not open.

 

[loumaag]

...
Do any scanners do ASTRO?
...

Yes, all digital scanners do ASTRO. That is the only digital signaling that they decode. ASTRO is Motroloa's name for P25. And yes, it pre-dates the P25 spec, makes you wonder who the real big boy on the block is.

 

[N_Jay]

...
Do any scanners do ASTRO?
...

Yes, all digital scanners do ASTRO. That is the only digital signaling that they decode. ASTRO is Motroloa's name for P25. And yes, it pre-dates the P25 spec, makes you wonder who the real big boy on the block is.

Original "ASTRO" is Motorola's proprietary digital system thaqt predates P25. It is VSELP with Smartnet 3600 BPS control (if trunked).
I don't know how clos ethe channel coding is to P25, but it is 9600 BPS on the voice channels.

"Astro 25" is Motorola's brand name for their P25 system and equipment.

My question is if the current scanners do ASTRO (non-p25) conventional or trunked?

 

[loumaag]

Original "ASTRO" is Motorola's proprietary digital system thaqt predates P25. It is VSELP with Smartnet 3600 BPS control (if trunked).

I am no Motorola historian; however, I am not sure the VLSEP systems were called ASTRO. I think that ASTRO has always been based on the IMBE Vocoder. There were ASTRO radios capable of using VSLEP but I think that was an "Oh Yeah, it can do this too." kind of thing. I could be wrong on that, but maybe wayne_h will jump in here with his usual excellent explanations.

BTW, a search on past posts/threads seems to indicate that the current digital scanners will not decode VSLEP. Now the only question is was it ASTRO or not ASTRO?

 

[N_Jay]

Original "ASTRO" is Motorola's proprietary digital system thaqt predates P25. It is VSELP with Smartnet 3600 BPS control (if trunked).

I am no Motorola historian; however, I am not sure the VLSEP systems were called ASTRO. I think that ASTRO has always been based on the IMBE Vocoder. There were ASTRO radios capable of using VSLEP but I think that was an "Oh Yeah, it can do this too." kind of thing. I could be wrong on that, but maybe wayne_h will jump in here with his usual excellent explanations.

BTW, a search on past posts/threads seems to indicate that the current digital scanners will not decode VSLEP. Now the only question is was it ASTRO or not ASTRO?

Well lets check with Wayne, he will either agree with me or be wrong with you. :twisted:

Some of use study history, others were there.

 

[loumaag]

...Well lets check with Wayne, he will either agree with me or be wrong with you. :twisted: ...

:lol: Ha, Okay! :lol:

 

[SCPD]

I am no Motorola historian; however, I am not sure the VLSEP systems were called ASTRO. I think that ASTRO has always been based on the IMBE Vocoder.

What's up Lou!

I'm not Wayne but I believe the marketing term "Astro" means VSELP. "Astro-25" now refers to IMBE and (at least) the P25 CAI. At one point "Astro" meant both.

-rick

 

[INDY72]

That sounds logical.. as on the Motorola site,.. The Astro family of radios covers all the digital types from VSELP to the true 9600 buad stuff.

 

[scannerfreak]

In short, It wasn't Motorola's decision to "release" the info. It's already there.

Or was it reverse engineered?

There is no need to "reverse engineer" the vocoder, as the IMBE vocoder spec is completely described (as are all technical elements of P25) in the vocoder description document TIA-102.BABA, "Project 25 -- Vocoder Description" so there is no need for reverse engineering, as long as the appropriate IPR licensing fee is paid to DVSI.


I hope I wasn't incorrect on my technical explination as I understand it, but I'm sure someone will let me know if I was! :lol:

I would assume that the 3600 BPS control channel was reverse engineered as well as the EDACS control channel.

Do any scanners do ASTRO?

Yes, P25 is an open standard, but it is TIA not Motorola who owns the standard.

DVSI owns the technology in the vocoder. I believe that is the only part technology in the standard that is not open.

Okay, but there were not any digital scanners available until the open Project 25 standards were being used correct?

He asked why MOT decided to let Uniden and RS use "their" protocol. I simply just said it wasn't "theirs" to give. They had no say so in the matter.

I agree VSELP is a proprietary of MOT, that is why no scanners support it I would imagine. But the P25 digital systems currently deployed can be scanned, not thanks to MOT, but thanks to DVSI ( a member of TIA) and Project 25. There is no need to reverse enigneer something that is already there for you to see! Right?

 

[N_Jay]

That sounds logical.. as on the Motorola site,.. The Astro family of radios covers all the digital types from VSELP to the true 9600 buad stuff.

Not to be argumentative, (like I am ever that? :twisted: ), but would these systems not be more properly called 9600 BPS.

Seems to me that P25 CAI, C4FM modulation sends di-bits.
That would make it a 9600BPS/4800 Baud system.

BPS(Bits Per Second) = Data Rate
Baud = Symbole rate

 

[INDY72]

LOL true,... but for simplicities sake I think we all just label em like this: Motorola ASTRO (3.6kbps), Motorola P-25 (9.6kbps -and all its variants), what Motorola calls them would be $$$ and $$$$, lol but as far as I can tell, ASTRO refers to all the digital capable family especially the VSELP, 3.6kbps (P-25 I) stuff, which includes the venerable Sabre HT's. I will look again later to see if the XTS5000 series HT's are called ASTRO's or not.

 

[EricCottrell]

He asked why MOT decided to let Uniden and RS use "their" protocol. I simply just said it wasn't "theirs" to give. They had no say so in the matter.

Hello,

The 3600 Baud Motorola control channel predates P25. It was originally used for Motorola Type 1 systems. My understanding is Motorola put the 3600 Baud control channel into the P25 specification as an alternative control channel.

The first Motorola trunking scanner from Uniden was the BC235XLT which is 1997 vintage and came out years after Motorola trunked systems started shipping. Previous to this a group of people were involved in writing programs that ran on a PC and decoded the Motorola control channel.

73 Eric

 

[N_Jay]

LOL true,... but for simplicities sake I think we all just label em like this: Motorola ASTRO (3.6kbps), Motorola P-25 (9.6kbps -and all its variants), what Motorola calls them would be $$$ and $$$$, lol but as far as I can tell, ASTRO refers to all the digital capable family especially the VSELP, 3.6kbps (P-25 I) stuff, which includes the venerable Sabre HT's. I will look again later to see if the XTS5000 series HT's are called ASTRO's or not.

For simplicity, I have found it is best to use acurate information.
Every time I find people caryingforward inacurate information in the name of simplicity, it just adds complexity at a later point.

Systems are either trunked or conventional.
Systems are either Digital, Analog, or misxed mode.
Trunked Systems have specific control formats (Mot, EDACS, or P25)
Digital systems are either Astro (VSELP), ProVoice (IMBE), or P25
Ewquipment works on some subset or superset of these combinations.

If you just say what you mean, then people with know what you mean, and know what you KNOW and don't know about the system.

If you take a simplified shortcut we will not know what you mean nor know what you do and do not know about the system.

 

[INDY72]

OK then.. here is the list: Motorola- ASTRO (which includes both the VSELP, and IMBE 3.6 kbps APCO P-25 Phase I formats including mixed mode systems.) and true P-25 (IMBE 9.6kbps APCO P-25 Phase II systems and all its variants), and both Type I, and II analog formats, which includes the Type II using 3.6kbps control chan, but is analog voice. EDACS- Analog , which includes Wide Area, Narrow Plan, SCAT, and Analog formats with Aegis Digital Encryption. Finally EDACS Provoice formats which may include both mixed mode, and pure pv digital. That about cover it?

 

[N_Jay]

OK then.. here is the list: Motorola- ASTRO (which includes both the VSELP, and IMBE 3.6 kbps APCO P-25 Phase I formats including mixed mode systems.) and true P-25 (IMBE 9.6kbps APCO P-25 Phase II systems and all its variants), and both Type I, and II analog formats, which includes the Type II using 3.6kbps control chan, but is analog voice. EDACS- Analog , which includes Wide Area, Narrow Plan, SCAT, and Analog formats with Aegis Digital Encryption. Finally EDACS Provoice formats which may include both mixed mode, and pure pv digital. That about cover it?

Yep, that hits mopst of the trunking systems, and of course you have the conventional systems of similar modulation and encoding.