Wideband FM on TK-5810H(G) K2 HW ver. 3.0 for use in GMRS (Part 95) and Amateur Bands (Part 97)

[KG4Y]

Please forgive me if this is something that I should have learned somewhere else or posted somewhere else, but searching on TK-5810 on these forums (or elsewhere on the Internet) have not yielded the answer I seek.

I purchased KPG-95DGN (v. 8.24) to program a pair of TK-5810H(G) K2 Hardware Version 3.0 (400-470 MHz band split) radios hoping I would also be able to use them for wide analog FM (25 kHz) mode in addition to experimenting / learning about P25 mode. The application's help software eludes to the fact that channel bandwidth is specified with the personality as the 'Channel Spacing [kHz]' option. When I key in an amateur or GMRS receive and transmit frequency with Channel Type set to Analog, the 'Channel Spacing [kHz]' parameter only allows the narrowband 12.5 kHz option. Further inspection of the help file indicates that 25.0 kHz can only be selected (unless the channel is configured as 'receive only') if both the transmit and receive frequencies are less than 420.98750 MHz or greater than 470.01250 MHz.

So, I know why, and I cannot complain since these are LMR market radios. My questions are -

1. Since other Kenwood equipment I have used allows to override certain limits, is there something I am missing with these radios that would allow me to work around these limits, or is the hardware really locked down to only transmitting 12.5 kHz on FM beyond the slice between 400 MHz and 420.98750 (probably managed mostly by NTIA and not FCC)?

2. For me to program my Motorola XPR4580 DMR mobile radios (I know, this is not a Motorola forum - bear with me a minute!) to use amateur spectrum with their Trbo RSS software, I hex edit memory while using the application to get frequencies modified to the ISM / amateur band that is within the band split of the radio, but not allowed by the RSS application. My suspicion is that the KPG-95DGN software is enforcing the limits, but I wonder - Does anyone know if there are hardware parameters limiting what bandwidths can operate on what frequencies on this series of equipment?

For what it's worth, I am a noob to this type of Kenwood gear, so I tried older similar software (i.e. KPG-95D and KPG-95DG). Neither of those versions successfully 'read' the configuration of these radios. So, I'm learning all kinds of stuff (probably the hard way and taking some chances), but have not seen or heard if there are known ways of getting wide band to work on these rigs in bands where 25 kHz channels are still widely used / legal.

Thanks in advance for anything you can offer regarding what might be done to make these work as I had hoped, or letting me know that there is no reasonable path to making these capabilities work on this gear.

 

[kd4efm]

95 wide band key is very expensive.

 

[KG4Y]

Ahhh, I see. That explains it - I had not realized they were selling it as a feature. Thank You!

 

[KK6ZTE]

There's an older version of 95DG (not DGN) that will allow wideband AND front panel programming. Both of which DGN don't allow.

I use it on my 5310K6 and 5810K2s on latest firmware with no issue.

 

[KG4Y]

There's an older version of 95DG (not DGN) that will allow wideband AND front panel programming. Both of which DGN don't allow.

I use it on my 5310K6 and 5810K2s on latest firmware with no issue.

Thanks,

I'll check that out. Since this is 3.0 hardware (well, that's what the Kenwood label says), and I was not successful connecting to the radio with D or DG revs, I will have to dig more into that and see if I can enable front panel programming and try it.

 

[KG4Y]

There's an older version of 95DG (not DGN) that will allow wideband AND front panel programming. Both of which DGN don't allow.

I use it on my 5310K6 and 5810K2s on latest firmware with no issue.

Also,

I have a question that you might be able to answer - from where are you able to obtain firmware for these radios? I am having trouble finding any information on firmware releases on these radios, though I have not attempted to open a commercial account with Kenwood yet. As a former contract employee at Motorola, I was exposed to enough of what is now the Motorola Solutions organization to know where to go for such things. I have no similar experience with Kenwood. Thanks in advance for what you can offer!

 

[mmckenna]

Kenwood does NOT make it easy to get updates. Pretty much you need to have a good relationship with a Kenwood dealer or factory rep to get that sort of stuff.

There has been rumors of a customer portal, either existing or coming, but I haven't see it yet. Used to have a factory rep that gave me a dealer tools account so I could pull my own stuff, but he retired and they closed all the accounts. I've mentioned this issue many times and even dropped the "Motorola does this much better" line, but to no avail.

 

[KevinC]

I've mentioned this issue many times and even dropped the "Motorola does this much better" line, but to no avail.

I had to look outside to see if pigs were flying and dogs and cats were living in harmony.

 

[KK6ZTE]

Also,

I have a question that you might be able to answer - from where are you able to obtain firmware for these radios? I am having trouble finding any information on firmware releases on these radios, though I have not attempted to open a commercial account with Kenwood yet. As a former contract employee at Motorola, I was exposed to enough of what is now the Motorola Solutions organization to know where to go for such things. I have no similar experience with Kenwood. Thanks in advance for what you can offer!

You need to go through a dealer. Most are incredibly disappointing. Find a good one, and make friends. Most aren't very good.

Check your QRZ email

Thanks,

I'll check that out. Since this is 3.0 hardware (well, that's what the Kenwood label says), and I was not successful connecting to the radio with D or DG revs, I will have to dig more into that and see if I can enable front panel programming and try it.

Mine are also 3.0 (G) hardware. I use KPG-95DG v7.01 on my TK-5x10 hardware (except my TK-5410D) with firmware version 826B (G6.14).

 

[prcguy]

If certain mfrs make it very difficult to get seemingly simple things done, then boycott them. Cancel big orders and contracts. Get the word out to the person with the checkbook that this particular vendor has made it impossible to do business.

 

[mmckenna]

If certain mfrs make it very difficult to get seemingly simple things done, then boycott them. Cancel big orders and contracts. Get the word out to the person with the checkbook that this particular vendor has made it impossible to do business.

That also punishes the vendors, and they are not the cause of this. In fact, the vendors are the ones trying to help us.

But I agree, while Kenwood makes good stuff, they are not making friends amongst those of us who buy a lot of their stuff.

 

[mrweather]

You need to go through a dealer. Most are incredibly disappointing. Find a good one, and make friends. Most aren't very good.

That's been my experience as well.

 

[KK6ZTE]

That also punishes the vendors, and they are not the cause of this. In fact, the vendors are the ones trying to help us.

But I agree, while Kenwood makes good stuff, they are not making friends amongst those of us who buy a lot of their stuff.

Yes, but some of us have very loud dealers that claim how wonderful and amazing they are and we can't even get them to email firmware or software updates to us.

 

[mmckenna]

Yes, but some of us have very loud dealers that claim how wonderful and amazing they are and we can't even get them to email firmware or software updates to us.

Yeah, sounds like a dealer you shouldn't support. I've had better luck with dealers up here. Was finally able to get the local factory rep to answer and dropbox me what I needed.

But, Kenwood seriously needs to fix this if they want to keep gathering market share. Larger customers won't stand for this sort of stuff for very long.

 

[KG4Y]

You need to go through a dealer. Most are incredibly disappointing. Find a good one, and make friends. Most aren't very good.

Check your QRZ email


Mine are also 3.0 (G) hardware. I use KPG-95DG v7.01 on my TK-5x10 hardware (except my TK-5410D) with firmware version 826B (G6.14).

Thanks - just catching back up with this - I will reply to your e-mail shortly.

Best 73,

Mike

 

[KG4Y]

Is there any way back to KPG-95DG from KPG-95DGN? Attempting to connect to the radio with DG after successfully connecting with DGN results in the rig 'blinking' out and a dialog box on the software stating "Check the transceiver model name, market code and hardware version." Note that the same cable works pull the information from the radio with DGN, but NOT DG v. 7.01. I must wonder if something happens when using DGN that makes it impossible to go backwards to DG...? Firmware in the radio shows as G6.12.00 when I boot up the radio holding down the PF3 key.

 

[KK6ZTE]

Which cable are you using?

 

[KG4Y]

I bought an after-market KPG-43 cable from Valley Enterprises that uses the FTDI chipset (P/N RPC-KPG-43-UF). I've tried two different PCs (one Windows 10, the other Windows 11) with this cable, and the same phenomena occurred. The firmware version may be relevant, but as many here have eluded to, there is little information available from Kenwood outside of the company. So, I certainly appreciate what folks here have been willing to share with me to advance my situation along.

 

[KG4Y]

So, I can see where in KPG-95DN v. 7.01 would allow me to program wide channels anywhere in the radio's frequency range. When I select 'Tools' -> 'Transceiver Information', the screen blinks for about a 1/2 second, comes back displaying 'PROGRAM' (I am using a KCH-15 head directly attached, after removing a KRK-11 that used to have the KCH-16 handheld control head attached) for about 8 seconds, then the radio shuts down. A few seconds later, I get the 'Transceiver Information' dialog box showing 'Model Name and Market Code' at 'TK-5810HG (K2)', 'Frequency' at '400-470MHz', 'Firmware Version' at 'G6.12', and three 'Option Settings' as 'P25 Conventional', 'P25 DES (Multi-Keys)', and 'P25 AES (Multi-Keys). SCM and KCH-16 sections show all '*'s in each field, presumably since they are no longer attached. I did pull the SCM out of the radio because I had some other complaints about encryption keys. So, I know the cable I have is able to read the radio at least enough to pull the 'Transceiver Information' from the hardware.

Then, I take the information from that screen, and attempt to match it to the 'Model Name and Market Code' fields dialog box that shows up when I l click 'Model' -> 'Product Information'. There is no 'Model Name and Market Code' option here that exactly matches what is displayed above - the closest apparent match for the Model Name and Market Code in KPG-95DG v. 7.01 is 'TK-5810H (K/K2) [Mobile/UHF]'. So, I select the 'Frequency' to 400-470MHz', set "Hardware Version' to 'Version 3' (which matches what is shown on radio's label plate), uncheck the 'Secure Cryptographic Module' option (since I removed the SCM), and set the 'Head Configuration' to 'Single Head', and the 'Head Type' to 'Full Function (KCH-15). Under the 'Enhanced Features', Only the 'P25 Conventional' and 'P25 Trunking' options are available to be checked, and only the 'P25 Conventional' option is checked to match the output of the 'Transceiver Information' tool above. As far as I have ascertained, this is what I have for hardware configuration.

Next, I power the radio back on with the programming cable connected. I get a long then short beep out of the external speaker, and a couple of seconds later end up on the default channel. I then click the 'Read Configuration' button on the 'Product Information' dialog box. The radio blinks and goes to the 'PROGRAM' screen, and I immediately get an error dialog advising 'Check the transceiver model name, market code and hardware version.' When I click 'OK' to clear the error message, the radio immediately turns off. This error message shows up any time I try to communicate with the radio any other way (i.e. read or write attempts), except for the output of the 'Transceiver Information' tool above using KPG-95DG v. 7.01.

I am pretty convinced this radio only works with the KPG-95DGN software, locked into narrowband. Does anybody know if there is any other way (than using the 'write' programming feature) to zeroize one of these rigs? Since the previous hardware config included the encryption module and a different control head, I wonder if there is not some way to zeroize this rig and put it in a pre-narrowband-mandate state..? Or, is it simply not possible with the hardware I have?

This rig is turning out to be more of a pain in the you-know-what than Motorola gear. Motorola sold many radios (even the DMR XPR45xx and XPR55xx non-'e' models) that were type accepted for Part 95 use. So, to keep from getting the you-know-what sued out of themselves, they caved and created a path to a free license feature to use with their Trbo CPS enabling wideband. Temper that with this thought - Motorola is not really any better with what they charge for CPS. However, the thought has occurred to me that it might be time to give up on these Kenwood rigs and find somebody that has made the investment in the Motorola CPS software that could program up some surplus Motorola XTS2500s to do P25 and wideband FM in Parts 95 and 97 spectrum.

Thanks again to all of you who have been generous and patient with me in helping advance this to this point.

 

[mmckenna]

I must wonder if something happens when using DGN that makes it impossible to go backwards to DG...? Firmware in the radio shows as G6.12.00 when I boot up the radio holding down the PF3 key.

It's been a while, but yes, firmware versions and software versions are linked pretty closely with most of the recent Kenwood stuff. The error you are getting is what I recall getting when trying to talk to newer firmware radios with older software.

I have the wideband license for my KPG-95, so I've never had a need to try and roll back firmware on a radio. I do believe you need to be very careful with the firmware and the version of radio you have. There is a reason there is different version radios, and trying to cram older firmware into a newer radio may not go the way you want.

Easiest solution to all this is to bite the bullet and get the wideband license for your KPG software. That was the intent of Kenwood, and while there may be hacks to get around it, those of us who use these radios for what they were intended don't have a need to try and do it any other way.