Will scanners/scanning keep upgrading or die off in 5 years
- Thread starter RIVERSMVP09
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There's no mandate...and certainly no Constitutional right....to listen to public safety agencies on a scanner.
If there is a 'mandate' to keep the people informed, neither the mandate nor the Constitution requires it to be done via radio. As long as the agencies keep the public informed by way of a Public Information Officer, in a timely, but not necessarily an immediate, way, they are covered.
With that said, the days of freewheeling scanner listening may be closer to the end than anyone thinks. The technology of the radios 'in the field,' plus the complications involved in programming a consumer-type radio, may cause the demise in itself.
And the cries of the police agencies...and some fire...that secrecy is "critical" to their operations is all BS in itself. The real reason why many agencies, especially small ones, want encryption, etc, is to prevent embarrassment or to prevent a situation from becoming a political football before it's over.
There was a time, a long time ago, that a cop would ask someone with a police radio in the car if they had an "FCC license" for it. In NYC, you used to have to have a permit issued by the NYPD to have a police radio in your car within NYC (ironically, the permit used to be issued by the Pistol License Section). When that permit expired, and you didn't renew it right away, the Pistol License Section would send a threatening letter telling you that "possession" of the radio(s) was a felony, and to bring the radio(s) into Police Headquarters to be vouchered! The only way they knew how to treat it was the same way as they treated gun possession!
The point I'm making is, things have gotten so far out of hand that some cops today will "take you in" if you have a radio, and investigate you for possible terrorist ties! And the fear of that, plus the super-technical radios which will be needed by the listeners, will do in scanning in the long run.
If there is a 'mandate' to keep the people informed, neither the mandate nor the Constitution requires it to be done via radio. As long as the agencies keep the public informed by way of a Public Information Officer, in a timely, but not necessarily an immediate, way, they are covered.
With that said, the days of freewheeling scanner listening may be closer to the end than anyone thinks. The technology of the radios 'in the field,' plus the complications involved in programming a consumer-type radio, may cause the demise in itself.
And the cries of the police agencies...and some fire...that secrecy is "critical" to their operations is all BS in itself. The real reason why many agencies, especially small ones, want encryption, etc, is to prevent embarrassment or to prevent a situation from becoming a political football before it's over.
There was a time, a long time ago, that a cop would ask someone with a police radio in the car if they had an "FCC license" for it. In NYC, you used to have to have a permit issued by the NYPD to have a police radio in your car within NYC (ironically, the permit used to be issued by the Pistol License Section). When that permit expired, and you didn't renew it right away, the Pistol License Section would send a threatening letter telling you that "possession" of the radio(s) was a felony, and to bring the radio(s) into Police Headquarters to be vouchered! The only way they knew how to treat it was the same way as they treated gun possession!
The point I'm making is, things have gotten so far out of hand that some cops today will "take you in" if you have a radio, and investigate you for possible terrorist ties! And the fear of that, plus the super-technical radios which will be needed by the listeners, will do in scanning in the long run.
I agree 100%.
The future of scanning is SDR, regardless of form factor - and to that end I foresee someone coming up with a handheld SDR-based scanner based on Raspberry Pi or something similar in the not-too-distant future.
n0esc
Feed Provider
Not so sure that I agree with this point.
Yes it does have the effect of dissuading Mr McNosypants from buying a scanner just because, but that was the case in years past before the newer digital equipment when it required special ordering crystals, and nosing around bins in the dark corners of a RadioShack that actually sold radios.
Manufacturers are doing a decent job of helping casual hobbyists get into the fold with products like the HP-1/2. How much simpler can you make it than to type in your zip code and be ready to rock. It is as simple or as complicated as you choose to make it. Just like anything.
I believe scanning will be around a bit longer. When it comes to encryption I think that the police will just use cell phones and they already took that away from free listening. Cops don't need the encryption, they already have it around the back door that's been locked closed for scanners for quite awhile now. Who's to stop any other transmitting agency, organizations from doing the same? The cell phones are getting cheaper to use every day.
I have to agree with Mr. A. 100%
Plus, in my case, the systems the agencies are using have become almost impossible to receive, even if you live within the Repeater area. I live in NJ, and the eventual statewide NJICS system (digital/trunked/700mhz) is almost impossible to receive despite the fact that I live within several of the sites. The problem is that I face the wrong way in my apartment building. I look out over the Hudson River, giving me clear access to all things NY. And while I do get Jersey City digital/trunked, as well as other Hudson County and Bergen County departments, and a lot of the still-VHF departments directly behind me, the NJICS is impossible. Fortunately, a friend of mine bought a 436 but couldn't program it correctly, and he lent it to me to see what I could do. I programmed it (to a certain extent), but could not get any of the NJICS Repeaters, despite my high elevation. And from what I've read on this Forum, I'm not the only one in this boat, as a lot of people are complaining that they are not getting sites despite being almost line-of-site with them.
With that, I'm certainly not going to invest $500 into a radio which the main purpose of buying it I'm unable to receive.
Scanners, as hobby and a tool, have turned the corner into a "bad neighborhood," and their demise is almost certain.
So you living in a building that blocks 700MHz signals and using an indoor antenna inside sthat building means scanning is dead? That's one of the most laughable comments I've seen in the forums.
If you have a decent antenna located where it can pick up signal, scanning a digital trunked system is no more difficult than scanning analog channels. Digital is just a different form of modulation; there's nothing magic about it that makes it short-range only.
And to MrAntiDigital, there are so many inaccuracies in your rant I don't even know where to start. If you have a Home Patrol or x36 series scanner, you simply download free updates to the database and copy them to the radio. If you pay someone else to do that for you, you're a sucker.
If you're traveling, simply connect the GPS accessory to the scanner, and as you travel, out-of-range systems and channels are automatically locked out, and in-range systems are automatically enabled. You don't have to do anything to make this work other than plug the GPS into the scanner and turn the scanner on.
If you have a decent antenna located where it can pick up signal, scanning a digital trunked system is no more difficult than scanning analog channels. Digital is just a different form of modulation; there's nothing magic about it that makes it short-range only.
And to MrAntiDigital, there are so many inaccuracies in your rant I don't even know where to start. If you have a Home Patrol or x36 series scanner, you simply download free updates to the database and copy them to the radio. If you pay someone else to do that for you, you're a sucker.
If you're traveling, simply connect the GPS accessory to the scanner, and as you travel, out-of-range systems and channels are automatically locked out, and in-range systems are automatically enabled. You don't have to do anything to make this work other than plug the GPS into the scanner and turn the scanner on.
Threads on RR have been predicting gloom & doom for the scanner enthusiast for years! First it was the digital challenge, then is was the threat of nation wide encryption, after that is was P25 Phase II.
Make it, and they will buy. Be willing to buy, and they will make it.
Make it, and they will buy. Be willing to buy, and they will make it.
There is a significant difference between a new mode (such as NXDN using current 'new tech' terms) and encryption which is illegal to develop and sell in a scanner. Encryption is not a challenge that can be resolved by technical advancement. It would require a change in Federal Law.
I wasn't implying the scanner manufactures could/would develop and sell a scanner that was capable of decoding encrypted signals.
Over a decade ago, the naysayers were predicting that all public safety communications would be encrypted in the very near future. It didn't happen.
Nor is it likely to. Encryption and interoperability are pretty much mutually exclusive. It's pretty tough to make a mutuial aid call from an encrypted channel. A few agencies haven't figured this out, but most have.
I don't know if it's true, but I've been told, by so-called experts, that performance takes a hit on a P25 Phase I system, when they switch to encrypted. Then there's the cost factor, and oh yea, so-called transparency in government. LOL!
My good friend is a fireman, and he said the P25 radios have enough problems when they're inside burning structures.
My good friend is a fireman, and he said the P25 radios have enough problems when they're inside burning structures.
I don't see anything in my post where I say ANYTHING about an antenna.
The fact is I did try an outdoor antenna, with the proper connection, mounted on a balcony, and the reception was still negative for the most part, or broken up and basically unreadable.
But your post makes my point: if people have to jump through hoops to get a digital signal, with "special" antennae (some post elsewhere recommend Yagis...yeah, right), etc., or have to be essentially in line-of-sight of the repeaters, only the real die-hard radio buffs will continue, those who look at the radio itself as the hobby, as opposed to people like myself who are mostly interested in what I hear over it (and possibly take action on it).
But the die-hard radio buffs will not hold the commercial market for the radios, and eventually the scanner radio market, as we know it now, will wither on the vine and eventually collapse.
Hardly. Getting a digital signal is no different or more difficult than getting an analog signal on the same frequency. If you can't get reception on a 700MHz frequency that is digitally modulated, you're going to have the same trouble receiving analog FM on that channel, all else being equal (same TX power, same antenna, etc).
And if your building is blocking the signal from transmitters on the opposite side of the building from your balcony antenna, you're still going to get crappy reception. What you're complaining about has nothing to with digital, it's about less-than optimal reception in a high-rise apartment building. You wouldn't get any better reception in that band even if the transmitter switched to analog FM.
The only point you make that has any validity whatsoever is that digital trunking scanners are more expensive than old analog scanners.
I honestly do not think some geek chomping at the bit it going to try and break encryption that lives in the US. It is a federal crime and they will drop the hammer on you over this issue for sure. It would have to be some smart geek from overseas to do it.
It will never happen will any scanner for sure. The only way would be with a software defined radio with software to decode the encrypted signal. It would be against the law for a scanner company to make a radio like it.
Our hobby will go underground one day and everybody will have to keep their mouth shut when you have some home brew program running on your software defined radio.
cpetraglia
Member
I would think if there are going to be any new laws, why not ban re-broadcasting of law transmissions. If I took a open CB mike and just let it set in front of my scanner, I bet it would not be long before someone was looking for my transmitter. I cant imagine why internet broadcasting is not illegal. !!If I knew, I would concentrate more on lottery numbers.
If encryption keeps becoming used more often, about the only thing left 'in the clear' will be Ham Radio and CB. It would be nice if someone would initiate a Federal law that mandated that Public Safety dispatch be maintained unencrypted so the public can be informed rather than kept in the dark.
I am not going to say it outright for fear of being punished by this great web site. We all know what is a major contributing factor in driving encryption.
ten13, have you tried several of the njics sites such as union county simulcast, west orange simulcast, east rutherford, alpine, and what was the signal strength? if your getting several bars of signal strength its likely simulcast distortion from lsm, which can be improved with a yagi and turning up the squelch or using the attenuator. if its not simulcast distortion you'll be able to receive those distant signals better with a yagi
even if law enforcement encrypted all their radios, there is still more to listen to than you would ever have time for, fireground channels, patient reports on northstar and southstar in nj, air traffic control, fast food drive thrus, business band, utilities, wireless microphones, sports stadium ops, satellites,
also, thanks for the laughs guys, it always amuses me when someone says decoding encryption is illegal, like you have your finger on the keyboard to a supercomputer. not going to brute force the encryption key for aes encryption, but sometimes radios lose the key
even if law enforcement encrypted all their radios, there is still more to listen to than you would ever have time for, fireground channels, patient reports on northstar and southstar in nj, air traffic control, fast food drive thrus, business band, utilities, wireless microphones, sports stadium ops, satellites,
also, thanks for the laughs guys, it always amuses me when someone says decoding encryption is illegal, like you have your finger on the keyboard to a supercomputer. not going to brute force the encryption key for aes encryption, but sometimes radios lose the key
My $0.01999999
I remember back when agencies went from a single frequency to several channels. How are we ever going to monitor them? And along came scanners. Jump ahead many years and along came trunking. But then along came trunk tracking scanners. Next it was digital. Now some of the protocols have been added to scanners.
Scanning in and of itself will always be around (as long as there is something to listen to). I think the OP's question revolves around listening to public safety radio. That answer comes down to whether or not a company or companies will build scanners that can monitor what we want, and be able to sell them for a profit. And us listeners are willing to pay that price.
It is very scary right now with no one seriously designing and manufacturing scanners. It could be people have been complaining about "$500 for digital" for so many years, and it is not going away nor getting cheaper to produce.
I remember back when agencies went from a single frequency to several channels. How are we ever going to monitor them? And along came scanners. Jump ahead many years and along came trunking. But then along came trunk tracking scanners. Next it was digital. Now some of the protocols have been added to scanners.
Scanning in and of itself will always be around (as long as there is something to listen to). I think the OP's question revolves around listening to public safety radio. That answer comes down to whether or not a company or companies will build scanners that can monitor what we want, and be able to sell them for a profit. And us listeners are willing to pay that price.
It is very scary right now with no one seriously designing and manufacturing scanners. It could be people have been complaining about "$500 for digital" for so many years, and it is not going away nor getting cheaper to produce.
I can't see how that is accurate. P25 is digital. Encrypted P25 is the same digital with some bits shifted. So if the premise is correct, some bit patterns radiate farther than others? I doubt it.
Now, if you were talking about switching from ANALOG to digital or analog to encrypted analog, there is some basis in physics for the original premise.
Some modes (such as TRBO) have issues with audio quality when switching to encryption, but I've never heard of nor experienced any performance differences when dealing with P25 vs encrypted P25.
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