• To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:

    Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.

    If you are having trouble legally obtaining software please state so. We do not want any hurt feelings when your vague post is mistaken for a free request. It is YOUR responsibility to properly word your request.

    To obtain Motorola software see the Sticky in the Motorola forum.

    The various other vendors often permit their dealers to sell the software online (i.e., Kenwood). Please use Google or some other search engine to find a dealer that sells the software. Typically each series or individual radio requires its own software package. Often the Kenwood software is less than $100 so don't be a cheapskate; just purchase it.

    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

    This is a large and very visible forum. We cannot jeopardize the ability to provide the RadioReference services by allowing this activity to occur. Please respect this.

Will The FCC Change The Part 95 Rules For Digital Data On The GMRS?

MTS2000des

5B2_BEE00 Czar
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
5,725
Location
Cobb County, GA Stadium Crime Zone
If they are going to allow linked repeaters with simulcast sites covering entire states, what's wrong with allowing CopSounds™ and FireSounds™, and every other FSK format? Why not DMR, P25 and NXDN? Just kidding. I am with you, the whackerism drive to sell more one chip wonder trash can radios is what is driving them.
 

DeoVindice

P25 Underground
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
527
Location
Gadsden Purchase
If they are going to allow linked repeaters with simulcast sites covering entire states, what's wrong with allowing CopSounds™ and FireSounds™, and every other FSK format? Why not DMR, P25 and NXDN? Just kidding. I am with you, the whackerism drive to sell more one chip wonder trash can radios is what is driving them.
Proper simulcast is at least an improvement from a spectral efficiency perspective, to keep these systems from clogging up all available pairs. There have been a couple of GPS-controlled simulcast cells showing up in the Southwest.
 

merlin

Active Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2003
Messages
3,211
Location
DN32su
The way I see GMRS going, FCC will throw it under the bus just like 11 meter CB. All day long, constant multi tone, beeps and whistles.
Yet to hear a call sign.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
25,568
Location
United States
If people don't like it, they gotta speak up. So many of these proposals have gone through due to lack of challenges from the public.
We have to do more than just complain on forums like this.

 

rescuecomm

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
1,524
Location
Travelers Rest, SC
Mc is correct. Without a united front to petition the FCC or the Senate committee overseeing it, citizen radio users will not get any changes to Part 95. It's been 20 years since MURS was made available but with Motorola's "no hobby use" changes to the proposed regulations. Maybe 40 years for 17 channels added to citizens band. The re-farming of GMRS only added some split channels, but no new spectrum.

How can changes be done? It should be easy with social media to get a large number of people to make comments to any NPRM. Otherwise, CB, FRS, and GMRS radio people must be a smaller group than I thought. We need a GM-RRL!
 

jeepsandradios

Member
Feed Provider
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
2,272
Location
East of the Mississippi
It will go forward as 99% of the GMRs users dont even know what GMRS stands for. On top of that over half the users of GMRS dont even have licenses. I gave up arguing with folks over it. Its turned into a HAM lite and if a manufacturer has a need they will pay lawyers to try to change the rule fr something they want to sell. Its all about money. GMRs used to be a good service until the last 5 years.
 

alcahuete

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
2,678
Location
Southern California
It will go forward as 99% of the GMRs users dont even know what GMRS stands for. On top of that over half the users of GMRS dont even have licenses. I gave up arguing with folks over it. Its turned into a HAM lite and if a manufacturer has a need they will pay lawyers to try to change the rule fr something they want to sell. Its all about money. GMRs used to be a good service until the last 5 years.
Couldn't agree more. The majority of users of the spectrum are using FRS radios and could care less about any of these changes.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
7,517
OK my submission has been sent. Frankly, the Midland proposal is defective on all counts. Much as we would all like a digital mode, the FCC is likely to rubber stamp Midland (a Job Creator) and not pay any attention to detail. So when 5 years from now, all the radios being marketed are Midland and have only an obscure digital mode TDMA/Fusion, folks will wonder why they cannot use a repeater or why their old reliable radios are pumping out noise all the time.

Please pay attention to what they are asking and play devils advocate. Midland is not your buddy. They just want to make a buck.
---------------------------------------------
Midland once again proposes changes to the FCC rules for the General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) which are detrimental to the scope, operation and spirit of GMRS which is primarily a high performance voice communications service for individuals and families. They propose lifting the restrictions they had agreed to under previous rule changes permitting short range digital transmissions. A. Proposed Changes to Rule Text; Midland desires to eliminate the requirement for a fixed integrated antenna for certain digital modes as stipulated under 95.1787(a)(4). Midland proposes that the power level be increased from the currently permissible 5 watts to 50 watts Midland proposes that digital transmissions be increased in repetition from once every 30 seconds to once every 10 seconds. Midland has once again raised their ask in creating a digital messaging and location service from GMRS which is primarily a voice service employing FM "wide band" modulation. The digital service that Midland proposes has been successfully deployed by other manufacturers in the 900 MHz ISM band without any modifications to existing rules. There is no technological advantage to using GMRS for this application, nor any technological barrier to Midland also using ISM Band(s) for the deployment of such an application. There is no reason to integrate such a feature into a Midland GMRS radio other than to create a competitive advantage for Midland. Users are not compelled to buy an integrated radio when they can use separate products for these same functions without any technical or functional burden. Further, Midland apparently recognizes the interference potential of deploying this application in an urban environment (of many radios) and has chosen to constrain the rule to Remote and Rural Operations without any explanation of how, where and when these 50 watt digital transmitters will be allowable. B. Addition of Digital Voice Transmissions to the list of Permissible GMRS Uses. Midland Proposes adding emission types F1E and F7D , and suggests a "TDMA" like digital voice mode. While others had suggested same in the 2017 rule making, the FCC was careful to omit this change as the GMRS and FRS services, which are FM modes and somewhat interoperable, serve an important lifeline for personal emergency messaging, introducing various digital modes into the services, absent a standard, and absent a requirement for FM interoperability, erodes this important feature of the current GMRS and FRS services. The FCC must be very careful that Midland or other manufacturer does not create a digital mode that is proprietary and exclusionary, especially to long established FM capabilities. Midland suggests that the use of TDMA mode will increase spectrum utilization on the GMRS service. While technically TDMA could provide a 4:1 improvement over FM 25 KHz bandwidth, it cannot be accomplished in a SIMPLEX operation which is nearly 100% of the market which Midland has captured. Midland has only recently offered repeaters, and none of their portable radios, and most mobile radios neither support Repeater operations nor are they employing full 25KHz bandwidth. The uncontrolled, and non standardized proliferation of digital modes will increase interference, reduce interoperability and will cause confusion to the GMRS market. C. Grant of the Instant Petition for Rulemaking is in the Public Interest Because it Will Improve Safety Applications for Off-Road GMRS Users. As I have stated above, the changes which Midland has requested will erode the functionality of the GMRS service and could otherwise be accomplished without any rule modification in other frequency bands such as 900 MHz ISM band as other manufacturers have done successfully for both voice and data services, including Mesh Networking.
--------------------------------
If I missed anything, feel free to plagiarize mine and add to your reply to FCC.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
7,517
It will go forward as 99% of the GMRs users dont even know what GMRS stands for. On top of that over half the users of GMRS dont even have licenses. I gave up arguing with folks over it. Its turned into a HAM lite and if a manufacturer has a need they will pay lawyers to try to change the rule fr something they want to sell. Its all about money. GMRs used to be a good service until the last 5 years.

A couple years back MRA petitioned the FCC for an extra 4KHz slice of the 450/455 MHz broadcast auxiliary band so that they could shove more repeaters into the California market. The FCC told them point blank that they could not go into the BA (Part 74?) and use that spectrum, that they had to stay in their lane (Part 90). So a few months later MRA made same proposal for bandwidth of GMRS upper and lower ends of both 462/467 bands and it went out for comments. I raised hell and the GMRS community was like, oh its just "guard band" and we don't need it. Well the FCC was OK with MRA going out of its lane in this case and approved it. So if you have a repeater in LA and your input or output has racket , good luck getting FCC to fix it because you cannot even prove incumbency (site based license) the way GMRS rules are written.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
7,517
If people don't like it, they gotta speak up. So many of these proposals have gone through due to lack of challenges from the public.
We have to do more than just complain on forums like this.

There are only 4 dissenting comments (mine is still pending). I suggest others read those and draft own. Some very good comments by the three now visible. A point I would like to make is that the US GMRS is far more permissible than the personal radio services of any other country. Australia is a close second. They have a tone of channels, but few repeaters, as they are tightly controlled. They are limited in power as well. Canada has no repeaters and is low power. We stand a chance of losing this band if it becomes license by rule or neutered to the point it is simply another consumer gadget. GMRS sits smack dab in the middle of prime real estate of the 450-470 MHz band. Unless you make noise and make sure GMRS remains "relevant", it will be paved over by a huge shopping mall.
 

mmckenna

I ♥ Ø
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
25,568
Location
United States
I'm going to try to write something this week if I have the time. I'm not very active on GMRS anymore, and my wife/mother-in-law have provided me with a very large list of stuff to do over the break, just so I don't get comfortable while off work for a week.
 

celestis

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2015
Messages
87
Location
Decommissioned Nextel Site
I've always thought digital on GMRS would be nice to have but plain analog FM users can't seem to cooperate and share sometimes

Just reauction the unused P22 licenses so I can have my own little fiefdom
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
7,517
I've always thought digital on GMRS would be nice to have but plain analog FM users can't seem to cooperate and share sometimes

Just reauction the unused P22 licenses so I can have my own little fiefdom
Well you can't be talking about GMRS users since digital is not available in GMRS (except by STA).

Nothing wrong with digital mode as long as the new radios also have FM for interoperability and are programmed to receive either automatically. I would like to see DMR as an option, because frankly it is better than P25 in every way. But knowing Midland they will do digital on the cheap and it will be proprietary.

By the way, if you have any sort of business, you can get a Part 90 license, operate DMR or P25, even encryption. You can also pay to rent a Part 22 frequency from an auction winner.
 

chrismol1

P25 TruCking!
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
1,322
It get worse....Now another ham that want to manage GMRS...


Many Hams are now adopting the GMRS service to expand upon their horizons when it comes to experimentation
which encompases one of the Basis of which Ham Radio exists
It is my Proposal therefore that a new Classification for GMRS known as GMRS+ be introduced with the idea of
allowing Ham Radio users more flexibility when operating on GMRS
Adoption of 12.5khz Narrowband Service for Analog and Digital Modes such as but not limited to P25, DMR, YSF,
Dstar with increased power on Channels 8 to 14 with no need to allocate additional spectrum.
+29 repeater pairs
:eek:
 
Last edited:

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
7,517
It get worse....Now another ham that want to manage GMRS...

Geez. There is really nothing drastically broken in GMRS with the 2017 rules. These suggestions can only make things worse.

What he is proposing is some sort of "incentive licensing" for GMRS. I can see it now, exclusive GMRS+ members only clubs and repeaters.

And repeaters on the FRS/GMRS interstitials? Good luck with that, it is for good reason those are low power and narrowband. You cannot carve out more repeater pairs in GMRS without making it all narrow band. And narrow band is not a good thing. Trust me on this, I can gladly show the numbers.

Radio hams (I am one) have gobs of spectrum almost from DC to light to play with. If they don't like the ham radio repeater coordination organization within their region, they need to change it, (or ignore it).

Can you imagine "voluntary monitors" from the Ham/GMRS+ group sending violation notices to mere lowly GMRS (nonplussed) citizens for their daily infractions? It will be like HOA's fining you for tall grass or faded paint. Please make this idea go away!

GMRS is for individuals, their families and family businesses to gain access to high performance UHF radio communications that costs $35/10/365, less than a penny a day.
 
Top