Will there ever be a ProVoice EDACS Scanner?

[blantonl]

No, there will not be a ProVoice Scanner.

This has been sticky to hopefully answer that question to the 1000's of people that continue to ask. Read that above line, carefully, it's not happening.

ProVoice is proprietary and closely protected by MA/COM, and they aren't releasing the information to the scanner manufactures.

If this ever changes, I'll update this sticky, however, if you have a question, read the top line in bold again.

Thanks!

 

[Thorny41587]

RE:

Doesn't Ericsson get money for releasing that in to the scanner manufactures?

 

[K5MAR]

Re: RE:

Doesn't Ericsson get money for releasing that in to the scanner manufactures?

Not as much as they get from the sale of unscannable systems to various agencies and groups.

Mark S.

 

[SMbaugh]

Provoice scanner

Lindsay just trying to give you some hope.

 

[2wayfreq]

Hi all,
The only solution right now is a bit expensive if you MUST listen. Thats buying an LPE-200/Jaguar or 7100ip. There is a guy on batlabs with the handle "123" He is a dealer of these. Also, you should check a few things:

1. Is the system ESK Encrypted? i.e (control channel etc.). If so--Oh Well!!

2. Make sure you have a 1 Meg version of this radio with the option 29 flash installed plus a few other flash options. <--who can help with more info?

To listen to say, Albuquerque PD, this is the only way.

 

[GutWrench]

Were doomed eh? The scanner manufacturers need to get on the ball.



Derek

 

[epfdtracktrunker]

Were doomed eh? The scanner manufacturers need to get on the ball.



Derek

It not the Scanner manufacturers fault, its Ma/Com's fault for not releasing the technology to the Scanner Maunfacturers. "Why?" you may ask, because the sale of unscannable radio systems is becoming more and more appealing to various agencies looking to upgrade their communications technology. There is nothing the scanner makers can do about it. :roll:

 

[inigo88]

There is nothing the scanner makers can do about it.

Except hire guys like this: :twisted:

http://www.cryptography.com/resources/whitepapers/DES.html

(No starting the encryption vs. digital modulation debate with me, I said guys like him. :twisted: )

 

[W4KRR]

It not the Scanner manufacturers fault, its Ma/Com's fault for not releasing the technology to the Scanner Maunfacturers. "Why?" you may ask, because the sale of unscannable radio systems is becoming more and more appealing to various agencies looking to upgrade their communications technology. There is nothing the scanner makers can do about it. :roll:

Well, the Uniden Bearcat BC235 was the first Trunk Tracking scanner. It was invented by Greg Knox. Now the question is this: Do you believe that scanner came about because Motorola released their technology to Greg Knox or Uniden, or otherwise gave their permission for Uniden to make a Trunk tracking scanner? Nope. Greg figured out a way to make a trunk tracking scanner that didn't infringe on Motorola patents. He then got a patent on the method he used. The first scanner to track GE/Ericsson EDACS systems came about in a similar fashion. If you carry on this same line of thinking, I don't see why it would be inconceivable that someone couldn't ever invent a way to track Pro-Voice.

 

[N_Jay]

It not the Scanner manufacturers fault, its Ma/Com's fault for not releasing the technology to the Scanner Maunfacturers. "Why?" you may ask, because the sale of unscannable radio systems is becoming more and more appealing to various agencies looking to upgrade their communications technology. There is nothing the scanner makers can do about it. :roll:

Well, the Uniden Bearcat BC235 was the first Trunk Tracking scanner. It was invented by Greg Knox. Now the question is this: Do you believe that scanner came about because Motorola released their technology to Greg Knox or Uniden, or otherwise gave their permission for Uniden to make a Trunk tracking scanner? Nope. Greg figured out a way to make a trunk tracking scanner that didn't infringe on Motorola patents. He then got a patent on the method he used. The first scanner to track GE/Ericsson EDACS systems came about in a similar fashion. If you carry on this same line of thinking, I don't see why it would be inconceivable that someone couldn't ever invent a way to track Pro-Voice.

1) DES 56 bit is not used anymore
2) Breaking a file encryption like 56 bit DES is MUCH easier then breaking a streaming encryption like encrypted voice.
3) Provoice CODEC is by DVSI, their entire business is built around protecting their patents. I doubt they have left much open for a hacker to back door.

 

[n4voxgill]

The process for conventional scanning was not unique enough to get a patent. VSELP was, so it was covered with a patent and Knox nor noone else could produce a scanner to decode it without ending up in court. The same thing with Provoice and Open Sky. You can beat this to death, but there is a valid patent on Provoice and macom is not stupid enough to license it.

They should have locked this thread after Lindsay made the first post.

 

[N_Jay]

The process for conventional scanning was not unique enough to get a patent. VSELP was, so it was covered with a patent and Knox nor noone else could produce a scanner to decode it without ending up in court. The same thing with Provoice and Open Sky. You can beat this to death, but there is a valid patent on Provoice and macom is not stupid enough to license it.

They should have locked this thread after Lindsay made the first post.

There may or may not be patents on ProVoice, but there is definetly strong IPR protection of the IMBE vocoder.

 

[blantonl]

1) DES 56 bit is not used anymore
2) Breaking a file encryption like 56 bit DES is MUCH easier then breaking a streaming encryption like encrypted voice.
3) Provoice CODEC is by DVSI, their entire business is built around protecting their patents. I doubt they have left much open for a hacker to back door.

Actually, 56 bit DES is still used in a number of CVSD applications.

Also, the differences between breaking encryption at a file level, and at a streaming level, are very similar. The attack approach is very similar - you are looking to attack things you know.... patterns, known components -etc. In fact, I would argue that attacking a DES encrypted IMBE frame would be much simpler - since there are a number of setup components of an IMBE frame that are predictable, and documented, as part of the IMBE vocoder. Capturing that data to a file is very, very, very simple. And at that point it becomes a predicatable, file based, attack.

 

[blantonl]

The framing is middle of the road... there is play in this process.

The Motorola control channel was patented by Motorola.

Same with EDACS....

We have scanners for both now.

ProVoice uses the IMBE vocoder - Uniden, RS, and AOR all have licenses.

I think from a *decoding* perspective, all that needs to happen is someone reverse-engineer the gmsk framing process for provoice. Uniden and Radio Shack can run into the valley with this information... apply their DVSI license to the decoded frames, and sell a ProVoice scanner.

Speculation, however, it's nothing different then figuring out the framing process for the Motorola control chanel, the EDACS, and on and on....

-Lb

 

[N_Jay]

Actually, 56 bit DES is still used in a number of CVSD applications.

Also, the differences between breaking encryption at a file level, and at a streaming level, are very similar. The attack approach is very similar - you are looking to attack things you know.... patterns, known components -etc. In fact, I would argue that attacking a DES encrypted IMBE frame would be much simpler - since there are a number of setup components of an IMBE frame that are predictable, and documented, as part of the IMBE vocoder. Capturing that data to a file is very, very, very simple. And at that point it becomes a predicatable, file based, attack.

No one has installed any new CVSD DES systems in years.

The P25 and most other IMBE systems are TrippleDES or AES, so your "as easy as a file" issue is a bit pointless also.

 

[RDCat]

is there a thread of which agencies utilize provice?

 

[poltergeisty]

Hmm, why the hi-grade encryption???

Remember for every method there is a equal and opposite counter method. :lol:

Now what is the equation to solve for (K) when K=KEY. :lol:Boo!-Poltergeisty :-0

 

[N_Jay]

Remember for every method there is a equal and opposite counter method. :lol:

Now what is the equation to solve for (K) when K=KEY. :lol:Boo!-Poltergeisty :-0

I don't know why you don't offer your services, since you are so well versed in th efiled?

 

[Thayne]

Like I said before, I SAW and HEARD a pro-96 that was decoding a ProVoice system and it sounded as good as my pro-96 does on apco 25.

The only problem is that the modded radio could only scan the ProVoice system conventionally, and it wouldn't do APCO-25 anymore (until this kid reloaded the original software).
This tells me that it will happen someday--especially if money could be made without getting sued

 

[rdale]

"This tells me that it will happen someday--especially if money could be made without getting sued"

What we're saying if that money could be made - but they'd get sued...