• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

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Wireless piggybacking lands man in trouble

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car2back

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They (the media) have done several stories in Tulsa about people marking the curbs in front of house with un-secure wireless networks so everyone will now wheree they can get free highspeed wireless interenet!
 

MacombMonitor

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When I was still working, I took a Pocket-PC with WiFi detection/logging software, and logged 63 unsecured WiFi networks between home, and the office...a 21 mile trip.
 

cschmit

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MacombMonitor said:
When I was still working, I took a Pocket-PC with WiFi detection/logging software, and logged 63 unsecured WiFi networks between home, and the office...a 21 mile trip.
There is an area in my city where my buddy and I drove through and it averaged 20 networks per city block that were wide open. This is the area of the city where all the collage kids live, pretty scarry.
 
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N_Jay

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Stupid people on both sides of this argument.

Did the coffee shop make it clear that the service was for customers only?
If not, then they have no grounds (no pun intended) to stand on.
If they did, then he is without defense.

Should someone be able to use my residential Internet connection?
No!
And the reason is easy, it is obvious the a residential service is private, where it is obvious that a service offered to the public is "public".

It goes to intent.
 

RolnCode3

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Personally, I have a 4megabit connection with Comcast...WAY more bandwidth than I'll use on a regular basis.

I actually tried opening my wireless router to make it accessible to outsiders, but it kept resetting without a wireless computer affiliated, so I turned that off. Bottom line, though, is we're all paying for large amounts of bandwidth not being used...I was willing to let me neighbors use it up when I didn't need it.

However, wardriving can be scary for those that don't understand how to avoid it. Hell, this was just "war sitting-in-the-parking-lot". If they didn't charge paying customers for access, than he hasn't stolen anything. If they wanted people to buy products to use it, they should change the password daily, and hand it out when coffee is purchased.
 
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N_Jay

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RolnCode3 said:
Personally, I have a 4megabit connection with Comcast...WAY more bandwidth than I'll use on a regular basis.

I actually tried opening my wireless router to make it accessible to outsiders, but it kept resetting without a wireless computer affiliated, so I turned that off. Bottom line, though, is we're all paying for large amounts of bandwidth not being used...I was willing to let me neighbors use it up when I didn't need it.

However, wardriving can be scary for those that don't understand how to avoid it. Hell, this was just "war sitting-in-the-parking-lot". If they didn't charge paying customers for access, than he hasn't stolen anything. If they wanted people to buy products to use it, they should change the password daily, and hand it out when coffee is purchased.
Or have a sign-on screen informing the person that it is for customers only.
The electronic equivalent of the "Restrooms are for customers only" sign.

Also you should check your contract with Comcast, it might not allow open public access points.
 

mancow

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What happens when Joe kiddie dittler decides to get several hundred megs of his jollies off your free wifi connection? The IP will come back to you and so will the subpoenas and possibly the search warrants.

That's the scary part. Although you would likely be cleared of any wrongdoing in the end when they examine your machine who wants to endure that?
 

MacombMonitor

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All my workstations, and servers are hard wired to my router on my home network. I also run WiFi PRE-N on a Netgear WGM124. I have WPA-PSK, and MAC Address Filtering enabled for security, as well as a software FireWall. The only authorized WiFi connection is my wife's computer on the second floor.

Early on, when I was configuring all of this, I told the wife I was disconnecting the Internet for about an hour. Later when I advised her it was back up, she told me she already knew, and had been using it for over a half hour. It turns out when I took my Wifi down, her computer automatically connected to the neighbors network across the street, one house over. Now I have her computer configured so it will only connect to my WiFi router, no others.

I told my neighbor's wife what had happened, and advise her to tell her husband that he needs to secure their network. She turned white as a sheet, and by the look on her face you would have thought I shot her dog, or something! Hum...maybe I should have taken a look around their hard drive!
 

rdale

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"Should someone be able to use my residential Internet connection?
No!"

If you leave it open - yes. If you put a TV in your front window and someone watches the PPV you ordered as they walk by - are they at fault? No. You opened it up to them.

You hooked up your wireless router and SET IT TO PUBLIC. You told it "open to everyone." You cannot say "Everyone is connecting, sue!" You simply close it.
 
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N_Jay

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rdale said:
"Should someone be able to use my residential Internet connection?
No!"

If you leave it open - yes. If you put a TV in your front window and someone watches the PPV you ordered as they walk by - are they at fault? No. You opened it up to them.

You hooked up your wireless router and SET IT TO PUBLIC. You told it "open to everyone." You cannot say "Everyone is connecting, sue!" You simply close it.
If you leave your door unlocked may I came in?
NO!

If a store door is unlocked, may I come in?
Yes!

In your example, if my TV is by the window is it appropriate for you to bring your remote and watch the channel you want when I am not watching?

We don't need new laws, we need judges with common sense! (Case law works well)
 

kb2vxa

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Hi all,

This sort of thing has been all over the news since the inception of Wi-Fi so is this news?

Here's a good example of ignorance of the law thanks to N_Jay;

"Stupid people on both sides of this argument."
Thanks to ignorance all the way around.

"Did the coffee shop make it clear that the service was for customers only?"
They don't have to, theft of service AKA piracy is illegal.

"If not, then they have no grounds (no pun intended) to stand on."
Not germain to the issue or the case.

"If they did, then he is without defense."
There is no defense against a charge of theft of service other than not commiting the crime.

"Should someone be able to use my residential Internet connection?
No!"
If it's encrypted they can't.

"And the reason is easy, it is obvious the a residential service is private, where it is obvious that a service offered to the public is "public".
The only thing that makes it obvious is the encryption.

"It goes to intent."
To steal or not to steal, that is the question. Whether to suffer the slings and arrows of law enforcement... ah, Shakespeare I'm not but the message is clear methinks even in the state of Denmark.

Then this;
"Also you should check your contract with Comcast, it might not allow open public access points."
Aw cummon, there is one HUGE difference between a consumer and a service provider, groan.

Here's the pitch, mancow is on the mound;
"What happens when Joe kiddie dittler decides to get several hundred megs of his jollies off your free wifi connection?"
Like that Sheriff in the commercial some years ago said, "Yo in a heap 'o trouble boy."

"The IP will come back to you and so will the subpoenas and possibly the search warrants."
That's only the beginning of your troubles.

"That's the scary part. Although you would likely be cleared of any wrongdoing in the end when they examine your machine who wants to endure that?"
They won't examine your machine in the end, that's the FIRST thing they do after carrying it out the door. Stll it's a weak defense, "Where's the OTHER computer?" Unless your lawyer can PROVE your innocsense or come up with some slick trick the cards are stacked against you, the judge is sitting there with your IP records in front of him.

Macomb, no point in quoting you, your point is crystal. Security is YOUR responsibility and your only protection.

Edit, someone sneaked in the back door while I was composing.

Re: N_Jay:
"If you leave your door unlocked may I came in?
NO!"
YES! People in rural areas and in Texas do it all the time. You've aparantly have never visited an area where people are friendly and honest.

"If a store door is unlocked, may I come in?
Yes!"
Uh?

"In your example, if my TV is by the window is it appropriate for you to bring your remote and watch the channel you want when I am not watching?"
All of the above is irrelevant and not germain to the issue.

"We don't need new laws, we need judges with common sense!"
We need posters with common sense too.
 
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N_Jay

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kb2vxa said:
You would think such a smart a lawyer would know how to use the quote function.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Warren, explain to dumb old me how the rational is different than a restroom in a store?

What about tables outside a restaurant on the sidewalk?

May I sit down? (Is that theft of services?)
May I continue to sit after being told they are for customers only?

(Wake up and figure out that you are not quite as smart as you think you are.)
 

pfish

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STiMULi

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Water is spilling all over the place. Every day me an my horse stop on the public thoroughfare and we grab a little water before it flows into oblivion. Then one day the owner of the property comes out and says you can't stop here and drink my water.

I say when you turn off your water or you keep you water on your property me and my horse will stop drinking the water.

Later that week me and my horse come through and my horse stops and leans down and gets some water and the sheriff is there and arrests me for theft of services.

I think even Judge Roy Bean would throw that one out of court.

I would contribute $$$ to this going to the US Supreme Court for a decision.
 
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N_Jay

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STiMULi said:
Water is spilling all over the place. Every day me an my horse stop on the public thoroughfare and we grab a little water before it flows into oblivion. Then one day the owner of the property comes out and says you can't stop here and drink my water.

I say when you turn off your water or you keep you water on your property me and my horse will stop drinking the water.

Later that week me and my horse come through and my horse stops and leans down and gets some water and the sheriff is there and arrests me for theft of services.

I think even Judge Roy Bean would throw that one out of court.

I would contribute $$$ to this going to the US Supreme Court for a decision.
Don't bother.

If al you were doing is lighting your WiFi detector, then you are collecting "spilled water",
However, you are waking by and notice a hose laying on the sidewalk coming from the yard.

And you are turning on the hose!
 

rdale

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"If you leave your door unlocked may I came in? NO!"

Nobody is going on anyone's property. You are broadcasting a signal outside of your property SPECIFICALLY STATING this is an open connection to the Internet.

"In your example, if my TV is by the window is it appropriate for you to bring your remote and watch the channel you want when I am not watching?"

No it is not, but I'm just watching your TV. I'm not changing your channel. I'm surfing the Internet. You will notice nothing different at all.
 

ImTheWeasel

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Bartlesville, Oklahoma
The following statement was made by an attorney.

If you have left your router unsecured, and it is set to share your broadband connection via wireless, and someone happens to "stumble" upon it and make use of it without your knowledge, then you are entirely at fault for this breach of security. This falls into the same category of, leaving your windows down on your car, but locking the doors in a parking lot. Alarm on or not. Someone could easily walk past, reach in and take your personal belongings, simply because you failed to properly secure them and prevent access to them from the public.

Also, lets not forget that since the person is likely to be sitting in there home across or down the street, or even in their car outside, they are not physically on your property. However, your wireless signal is being broadcast throughout the neighborhood uncontrolled. Your signal is being broadcast into public domain. Since you have failed to secure the signal from public access, this gives anyone who chooses to do so, the right to CONNECT.

However, they can be connected and have an IP address issued via DHCP from your router, but if they browse your personal home network or begin actively using your broaband connection by intiating a transfer of data from their web browser to a remote server over your broadband connection. Then yes they are in violation of the law, for theft of service. This is due to them at that point physically using a service that you pay for.

Merely connecting to an unsecured wirless network is not illegal. Due to the fact that it is an uncontrolled wireless transmission being broadcast into public domain. If it reaches your neighbors yard, your signal is within his property.


Wardriving is not a crime; You can detect and log the networks you find to be open to the public or secured. However, using them to check your stocks or e-mail is.



As i stated above, this was said by an attorney when he was asked to explain what is considered to be "Theft of Services", and or illegal in regards to people connecting to unsecured wireless routers in neighborhoods across america.
 

STiMULi

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N_Jay said:
Don't bother.

If al you were doing is lighting your WiFi detector, then you are collecting "spilled water",
However, you are waking by and notice a hose laying on the sidewalk coming from the yard.

And you are turning on the hose!
This would require me to go into his yard and turn on the hose. If the spigot is on and it is already draining all over the public property then I or my horse can have a drink.

Turn it off or don't call it free
 
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