Yaesu came out with a new radio.. now Icom?

[thedanderzone]

Hi guys,

To give you a little background, I've been searching for a dual band mobile radio for a command vehicle cabinet we are building at my local EMS department. Our Deputy Chief wants to include an amateur radio in the event that they need emergency communications with local amateurs (there are a lot around here and we rely heavily on them during large scale events.) We have no need to transmit on the VHF public safety band as we already have 2 Motorola APX radios for that purpose.

As many of you have likely seen, Yaesu just announced their new FTM-300DR. He likes this radio, but he is leaning towards an Icom ID-5100A due to the D-Star function, along with some of the other nice features. However, this Icom is pretty dated.

My question to you guys - do you think we should wait to purchase one of these radios until we see if Icom comes out with a new model? Do you have any other suggestions? I can't imagine that the transmit function will happen much - if ever - but he said he wants to keep it in the event of an emergency and needs to utilize emergency communications over any of those frequencies.

We have no need for HF gear or low band VHF gear. Just the 144-440 range.

Thanks everyone,
Dan

 

[kayn1n32008]

Unless you need access to Fusion or D-Star, I would avoid hammy radios. Especially if you are operating LMR gear on either the VHF or UHF spectrum. Hammy radios have very poor front end filtering, and suffer desense when an inband(136-174MHz or 400-512MHz) radio is adjacent and transmitting.

 

[belvdr]

I wouldn't judge either of those radios by their age. New dual band amateur radios just aren't released that often.

When I had my ID-5100A in my car, I loved it.

 

[mmckenna]

I'd agree with K on this. VHF and UHF commercial radios will cover the 2 meter or 70cm band just fine depending on the model, and will outperform the hammy stuff. It's also going to make life easier by having common radios, common programming software and cables.

As for the Yaesu/Icom, since both operate on different digital modes, it seems odd for that to be a question. Which digital mode you need will depend on what the local hams are using. In other words, no point in having a Fusion radio if they are all using D-Star, and no point in having a D-star radio if they are all running Fusion. Since neither digital mode is compatible with the others, it shouldn't be a decision between the two.

 

[prcguy]

The amateur radios have one advantage over commercial radios in that any ham frequency can be added or changed at any time without a computer. If you program up a bunch of ham freqs in a commercial radio and someone in the field changes a ham net frequency you are screwed.

Since this is for a vehicle installation that probably has a bit more room than a grab and go case you might consider purchasing an amateur band only filter so the amateur radios will not be affected by commercial or public service radios nearby. DCI makes a great 2m/70cm filter for dual band radios that I have used on my dual band mobile at mountain top repeater sites and my amateur radio with that filter was happy and did not get any interference. A filter like this will upgrade an amateur radio to better than commercial specs for out of band rejection.

 

[Hit_Factor]

Try using both the Icom and Yeasu radios. I bet you will find that one of them has intuitive controls.

Of course, you have to wait for the Yaesu to ship. Right now it only exist in marketing brochures.

 

[thedanderzone]

The VFO function is more what was looking promising in his eyes. I don't doubt that one is intuitive over the other, I just haven't had experience with any of them.

Another option that was mentioned was the Kenwood TM-710GA, but I also don't have any experience with that one.

We have more D-Star around here, but that's beside the point. He is more concerned with analog.

Thanks for the replies so far guys. We'd love to just use the APXs, but we have single band capability with those and we have no sort of FPP capability - hence the cheap alternative of getting something like the Icom ID-5100A for the VFO function and dual band function.

 

[vagrant]

Yaesu FTM-400XDR:
- Large screen
- Control via touch screen, microphone, or buttons on control head
- Remote head for easy mounting/viewing
- Program in your local amateur repeaters by hand or software via RTSystems ($25)
- Scan local repeaters on one side while using the other side for simplex or a repeater reverse (input freq)

The DCI dual band filter recommendation by prcguy is a must for the RF environment you're going to use that or any amateur radio. DCI-146-444-DB Remember, the filtering works both ways keeping things friendly. You can always test the commercial and amateur radios together and purchase the filter later, but it should be apparent pretty quick.

 

[Hit_Factor]

Yaesu FTM-400XDR:
- Large screen
- Control via touch screen, microphone, or buttons on control head
- Remote head for easy mounting/viewing
- Program in your local amateur repeaters by hand or software via RTSystems ($25)
- Scan local repeaters on one side while using the other side for simplex or a repeater reverse (input freq)

All of that is in the ID-5100A. I own a ID-5100, and some Yaesu rigs. It looks like the Icom display is larger.

The ID-5100 also has automatic repeater control in VFO mode and can use the GPS to find repeaters in range.

Icom provides free programming software that's available now. Yaesu's last new radio was released for nearly a year before programming software was released.

Yaesu uses an archaic menu system, until the radio is released we won't know.

 

[prima19rider]

Icom IC-7100 all band all mode. HF / VHF / UHF / DStar. combine it with an OpenSpot 3 that will transcode to Fusion/Dstar and DMR. have all the tools in the box for emergencies.

 

[charlieprimero]

The Icom ID-5100 also scans wicked fast.

 

[belvdr]

My question in all of this is are you simply looking to receive or transmit as well? If just receive, why not get a simple receiver and skip the transceiver market?

 

[Hit_Factor]

My question in all of this is are you simply looking to receive or transmit as well? If just receive, why not get a simple receiver and skip the transceiver market?

That's a good point. They probably have a scanner in their rolling stock.

That also skips the licensing issues. Although a Technician license is relatively easy to obtain.

FWIW, I am part of an Emergency Response Organization and Amateur Radio is not part of our plan. It is far less relevant these days as the public safety networks are very robust and redundant.

 

[AK9R]

Regarding the "need" for a VFO...

Many of the late-model LMR VHF and UHF radios have lots of memories. I would be surprised if all of the amateur radio repeaters in a 50-mile radius of your base of operations plus the bulk of the possible simplex frequencies would exceed the memory space of something like a Kenwood NX-5000 series LMR radio. I would also check with all of the RACES officers and ARES ECs in your area of operations as they probably already have lists of frequencies they would typically use.

I think the advantage of having common radios in your command vehicle, with one or two dedicated to amateur radio, is greater than the advantage of having access to a VFO.

 

[wwhitby]

I'd agree with K on this. VHF and UHF commercial radios will cover the 2 meter or 70cm band just fine depending on the model, and will outperform the hammy stuff. It's also going to make life easier by having common radios, common programming software and cables.

In this application, I agree with K and mmckenna, and would recommend using commercial VHF and UHF analog mobile radios. With a little foresight, you can include all the local ham repeaters and simplex frequencies and have plenty of available memory channels left over. I did this with the Kenwood VHF radio I have in my car, and haven't had the modify the programming in a couple of years.

And, it also eliminates the ability and temptation for hams and others to "play around" with the programming of the radio.

 

[mmckenna]

And, it also eliminates the ability and temptation for hams and others to "play around" with the programming of the radio.

Yup, and it also gives the police the ability to have another radio they can use on VHF or UHF public safety frequencies, rather than dedicating a position to just amateur use. While it's nice to have the option to have a licensed amateur involved, you'll often find that most hams are already well equipped with "go kits" or a mobile radio in their vehicle. Having a dedicated radio/position in a command vehicle can be handy, but in some cases having an amateur that hasn't been through the background checks sitting in the middle of what is going on might be a bad idea. Having the amateur position removed to another location can make things easier for the pros working in the truck, not having to listen to ham chatter, etc.

An approach that some use is to take an existing employee of the agency and have them get their ham ticket. Depending on the agency, and their requirements for security clearances, that might be much easier.

 

[prcguy]

Another thing to consider is a separate amateur radio is not that expensive and do you really want to tie up a costly APX for ham stuff?

 

[bill4long]

For your application, which favors simplicity and reliability over ragchewing and ease of programming, you could get something like a used Motorola GM-300 used on ebay. Range from $50 to $100. Jillions of these became available when the FCC forced narrowbanding several years ago. There are 25 and 40 watt variants. Extremely reliable. You will have to find someone around your area that can program it, but that's usually not hard to find. Some of the ebay sellers will do it for a small fee. They are only mono-band but they make VHF and UHF variants so you can get two of them, one for VHF and one for UHF, at a combined cost below most of the better dual-band ham mobile. Plus each radio could be concurrently used independently of the other which isn't true with a single dual-band radio.

 

[prcguy]

I don't think a GM300 has enough channel capacity to program all the possible amateur frequency combinations that might be needed in an emergency and I've had frequency plans change at the last minute in amateur disaster practice drills. Plus you would need two radios for dual band. If I were building up a new command vehicle with fancy APX radios I would not be looking for 30yr old obsolete radios with no FPP and no features to install with them.

I think a good dual band amateur radio is the answer and in my experience most Icoms seem to work better in high RF environments than most Yaesus.

For your application, which favors simplicity and reliability over ragchewing and ease of programming, get something like a used Motorola GM-300 used on ebay. Range from $50 to $100. Jillions of these became available when the FCC forced narrowbanding several years ago. There are 25 and 40 watt variants. Extremely reliable. You will have to find someone around your area that can program it, but that's usually not hard to find. Some of the ebay sellers will do it for a small fee. They are only mono-band but they make VHF and UHF variants so you can get two of them, one for VHF and one for UHF, at a combined cost below most of the better ham units. Plus each radio could be used independently of the other which isn't true with a single dual-band radio.

 

[vagrant]

Another thing to consider is a separate amateur radio is not that expensive and do you really want to tie up a costly APX for ham stuff?

That is a very good point and probably the reason why they're asking about an amateur radio in the first place by posting it in the amateur radio forum.

I would also not wait to perform a GPS search with the 5100 to find nearby D-Star repeaters either. Just program the nearby analog repeaters and be ready, regardless of radio. Contact one or two local amateur clubs and they should be able to provide an accurate list.

There is no need to wait until an incident where you need it and do not have it. Use it for analog and you're good to go.