Yakima, WA - 'Critical' upgrades to Police radios

[w7dbz]

Yakima Police Officers have found themselves in dangerous situations where no one hears their calls for help.

'Critical' upgrades to Police radios: Yakima eyes $500,000 improvements | Top Video | KIMA CBS 29 - News, Weather and Sports - Yakima, WA

 

[LowBat]

So has their current radio system been faulty for the last 20 to 30 years ? Have they been complaning about it all along since day one when they were new, or are their radios suddenly not working anymore?

 

[jim202]

Radio systems don't just stop working. They degrade over time due to lack of good maintenance.

My bet is as normal these days, the radio vendor sales team has done a wine and dine on the political management. Telling them how much better the new radios will work over what they have now.

No one ever goes back to the radio shop and asks them what is going on. Their answer will probably support the sales team as they get a cut of the deal. They get more work installing and programming all these new radios and support structure. Probably even a maintenance contract where they get paid no matter if they do any maintenance or not, So you know just how much effort will go into supporting the up keep of the system.

Again we have a public safety agency not doing due diligence in having a non interested person or company come in and evaluate just what is going on and make any recommendations to changes that may or may not be needed to the radio system.

Having worked for a couple of consulting firms in the past, I saw this all too often take place. The public safety agency has no clue to what the radio vendor is telling them is true or or fabricated to make money selling the new radios. That is the public's tax money and they have the right to know if it really is needed or not. No one is saying the police have a problem. But just what the problem is caused from is the question.

 

[jackj]

Be careful there Jim, don't hurt yourself jumping to all those conclusions. I looked around on the city's web site but was unable to find out if the city has it's own radio shop or contracts out the repair/installation work. The article didn't say and I'm not interested enough to spend hours searching for the info. I will say that most medium size and larger cities find it cheaper to staff and stock their own shops instead of contracting the work out.

For you to imply that public safety agency management has "no clue" as to the performance of their radio system is so far off the mark as to be unworthy of comment. No radio system will cover 100% of the area 100% of the time by 100% of the radios so you can cherry-pick your data to make the local government look bad if that is your intent. No newspaper or show is going to sell many papers or much soap by patting the government on the back and tell us what a great job they are doing. So don't believe 33% of what you read in the paper or see on TV. The other 66% is advertising and you can believe that if you want.

 

[jim202]

Be careful there Jim, don't hurt yourself jumping to all those conclusions. I looked around on the city's web site but was unable to find out if the city has it's own radio shop or contracts out the repair/installation work. The article didn't say and I'm not interested enough to spend hours searching for the info. I will say that most medium size and larger cities find it cheaper to staff and stock their own shops instead of contracting the work out.

For you to imply that public safety agency management has "no clue" as to the performance of their radio system is so far off the mark as to be unworthy of comment. No radio system will cover 100% of the area 100% of the time by 100% of the radios so you can cherry-pick your data to make the local government look bad if that is your intent. No newspaper or show is going to sell many papers or much soap by patting the government on the back and tell us what a great job they are doing. So don't believe 33% of what you read in the paper or see on TV. The other 66% is advertising and you can believe that if you want.

I didn't just get off the boat last year. I have been doing this public safety radio service and engineering for well over 45 years now. Been there, done that and seen it all from the inside. I stand my ground when I say the upper management have very little understanding of the technical details of just what is going on. Sure they might hear some comments now and then, but until the sales team comes in the door, they are generally out of the picture.

The new smell and glitter of how much a new radio system can do just gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling. They see all these new fancy do dads that the new radio system will allow them to press buttons and make the display show this and that. You can now have instant location information on each and every radio on the air. They forget that each new trick the radio system does has a dollar sign with it. Doesn't matter that each new gizmo probably will never be used. It's new and they just have to have it for the bragging rights.

Being more down to earth is where they should be. The basics of most radios today on the market will be more than the average agency can even dream of using. The type of system will dictate how many of these new features can even be used. The normal foot soldier out in the field only want his or her radio to work when they need it. That is where the effort should be focused.

Putting it bluntly, I have seen more new radio systems not work because they were not built and engineered properly. This could also be blamed on the upper management because once they got the bottom line, they learned real fast that they couldn't afford it. So they cut back on certain parts of the proposed system. Bottom line is it doesn't work right out of the box.

All that could have been avoided if only some slow steps were taken up front and they used an outside source to verify what a vendor was stuffing into the system. I am not saying go get a high priced consulting firm. But unless you know a reputable individual, you may be forced to go that route. It will be cheaper in the long run than trying to manipulate a poorly performing new radio system and all the mega bucks the agency poured into it. Don't forget to check on the performance of the firm you hire. There are a few consulting firms out there that don't do the best work. Check references and ask a bunch of questions to those references given.

 

[jackj]

Come on Jim, you portray these folks as complete, head-in-the-sand, incompetent yahoo's. Nothing could be further from the truth, they wouldn't be where they are now if that were the case. True, they don't know how radios work but they aren't technicians and they can do a very effective management job without knowing how to fix a radio. I would be willing to bet that the city we are discussing, Yakima, WA, doesn't spend one dime on the purchase of a new 2-way radio system without input from consultants. My experiences on the sales as well as service end of the business tells me that they won't put ANYTHING out for bid without a very good idea of what it will cost.

Are there incompetent fools out there working in city government? Yes, a few. But they don't last long before they are discovered moved out and they rarely have a lasting effect on anything. Please remember that we are talking about the folks who actually write the bid specs and push the papers that make city government work, not the politicians. The politicians are another subject that I really don't want to get worked up over.

 

[MTS2000des]

theyre shown using Pro series radios...there's your problem right there. These are the biggest POS'es ever.

Seriously, as usual the report is general and doesn't state what the problem is. If the city just wants to buy new radios and the problem is in the infrastructure, it isn't going to remedy the situation. A radio system designed 20 years ago can't go untouched. As more buildings and population increases, coverage decreases. More remote receive sites may be needed, or more frequencies for additional talk paths.

As usual the media jumps on a chance to create a "panic" story for "live at five" without any real fact checking or research. There is clear there is an issue with the performance of the portable radios, but WHAT is causing it is key to finding a solution, versus going out and spending 500K on new portables alone.

 

[KE4ZNR]

theyre shown using Pro series radios...there's your problem right there. These are the biggest POS'es ever.

Seriously, as usual the report is general and doesn't state what the problem is. If the city just wants to buy new radios and the problem is in the infrastructure, it isn't going to remedy the situation. A radio system designed 20 years ago can't go untouched. As more buildings and population increases, coverage decreases. More remote receive sites may be needed, or more frequencies for additional talk paths.

As usual the media jumps on a chance to create a "panic" story for "live at five" without any real fact checking or research. There is clear there is an issue with the performance of the portable radios, but WHAT is causing it is key to finding a solution, versus going out and spending 500K on new portables alone.

Yep. /Thread
Marshall KE4ZNR

 

[im800mhz]

So entertaining to watch clueless folks out of the area solve our problems for us. Thanks guys!

 

[jim202]

So entertaining to watch clueless folks out of the area solve our problems for us. Thanks guys!

No one is solving your problems, just pointing out how you got to where you are today. The big question is what are you going to do about the issues.

As MTS2000 pointed out as time goes by, the landscape changes. This changes the way any radio system performs. Before any money is spent on new radios, the malfunction of the existing system needs to be identified.

I have a major advantage over just about everyone else on the chat group here. I get to travel around the country a good deal of the time getting to talk with the users, managers and radio people using and working on the radio systems. The trend is to ignore the basics like tower maintenance, antenna systems and grounding systems. If the radio doesn't work, the first move most take is to replace it all. Great for the radio vendors, radio shops and real bad for the tax payers.

Many of the antenna systems out there on old radio systems are 10 to 15 years old and have never been touched. If your using a folded dipole antenna, the metal corrosion has about eaten the antenna to pieces. The coax cable has probably had water intrusion and the coax connectors could possibly have corrosion inside them also. This is not based on speculation, but from hands on inspection and chats with the radio and tower repair crews. Antenna systems are like an automobile in New England. They only last so long before the road salt eats them to pieces. If your near the ocean, they won't even make the ten year mark.

In the Gulf Coast area, if your metal antenna lasted more than 6 to 8 years, you were doing good. Why a metal antenna, the lightning strikes take out the fiberglass poles all the time. Which antenna works best for you? That depends on where they are installed and how much salt, wind and ice you have to put up with.

Maybe just maybe people will learn from those that have gone before you. It is faster and easier to learn the fast way than having to spend years learning the hard way. It is easier to walk in the steps of those in front of you than to cut your own virgin trail.

 

[Net-5]

Radio systems don't just stop working. They degrade over time due to lack of good maintenance.

My bet is as normal these days, the radio vendor sales team has done a wine and dine on the political management. Telling them how much better the new radios will work over what they have now.

No one ever goes back to the radio shop and asks them what is going on. Their answer will probably support the sales team as they get a cut of the deal. They get more work installing and programming all these new radios and support structure. Probably even a maintenance contract where they get paid no matter if they do any maintenance or not, So you know just how much effort will go into supporting the up keep of the system.

Again we have a public safety agency not doing due diligence in having a non interested person or company come in and evaluate just what is going on and make any recommendations to changes that may or may not be needed to the radio system.

Having worked for a couple of consulting firms in the past, I saw this all too often take place. The public safety agency has no clue to what the radio vendor is telling them is true or or fabricated to make money selling the new radios. That is the public's tax money and they have the right to know if it really is needed or not. No one is saying the police have a problem. But just what the problem is caused from is the question.

Jim: In my opinion your comments are spot on and completely accurate, based on similar experiences I've had over years of working in LE and the public sector. And the mind boggling thing is that this is a history that keeps right on repeating itself, over and over again, all across the country.

I've had more than one occasion of being part of a department that had a hideously expensive radio/data system jammed down our collective throats that actually made things worse. Much worse.

 

[jim202]

Come on Jim, you portray these folks as complete, head-in-the-sand, incompetent yahoo's.

Please remember that we are talking about the folks who actually write the bid specs and push the papers that make city government work, not the politicians. The politicians are another subject that I really don't want to get worked up over.

What history has proven is that most of the agencies that end up with a new radio system that doesn't work well, had the specs wrote by the radio vendor. Then when the cost came back as too much money, the agency started to pick out selected pieces to lower the total package. Depending on the wording of the specs, the radio vendor just went along with it and said they would not be responsible for any system problems.

Yup, happens all the time. You just don't hear about it. The agencies try to back paddle and point fingers. As the old saying goes, "You can't fix stupid".

 

[speedway_navigator]

>>Depending on the wording of the specs, the radio vendor just went along with it

I saw a 'system requirement' for a video camera system that was just a copy of a Bosch spec sheet, it even required the program on the PC viewing the video to have 6 different foreign languages available to choose from, in a town of 11,000 in the middle of Indiana.