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Old 03-21-2017, 9:54 AM
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Default BCDx36HP False TGID Display Investigation

Engineers are now looking to get more information about the issue that has sporadically come up regarding TGIDs from one system showing up while scanning another system (or similar). If you have experienced, we'd appreciate your help looking into this.

Q1. On which systems (P25, MOT, DMR, EDACS, LTR) does it occur?

Q2. How is it wrong?
For example, will be TGID 256 incorrect to 33024? (like Hex 0x0100 -> 0x8100)
If so, is it a fixed value whenever it occurs or a random value?

Q3. Does the scanner display a TGID that is stored in another system?
For example, maybe P25 TGID displayed as DMR TGID?
For example, maybe the TGID of DMR Site 1 displayed as the TGID of DMR Site 2?
If so, is it a fixed pattern whenever it occurs or a random pattern?

Q4. Does it occur from the middle of a conversation?

Q5. Does it keep the wrong TGID display during a conversation?

Q6. Does it occur also in ID scan mode?

Q7. Does it occur also for system ID, site ID, or unit ID?

Q8. How often does it occur?
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:31 AM
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Q1: In my case it seems to only be OFT and MotoTrbo systems.

Q2: Example,

200 152.3075/1 CC 4 5 103 20 Phillipsburg Board of Education - Phillipsburg BOE - 200 DMR NFM 00:00:45 03/20/17 13:07:42 03/21/17 10:08:14 DMR One Frequency
8 152.3075/2 CC 4 5 2 Phillipsburg Board of Education - Unknown - TGID:8 DMR NFM 00:00:44 03/21/17 09:41:25 03/21/17 09:42:13 DMR One Frequency

TGID 8 in the above example is from a completely different system. While this TGID 8 was active I was hearing what should have been TGID 100 of the Phillipsburg Board of Education.

Q3: Yes, the false TGID displayed are from other systems. It seems to be a random pattern. I have also seen TGID 8 from the above example in other systems. The color code is usually correct for the system the false TGID displays in.

Q4 & Q5: The false TGID is displayed from the time the scanner stops on the frequency till the carrier drops.

Q6: I have not noticed the false TGID in ID scan mode. Only ID search mode. It also does not seem to happen while scanning conventional DMR frequencies.

Q7: I have not noticed System ID, Site ID, or UID have this false display issue. Mostly when the false TGID's display there is no UID listed.

Q8: The false TGID display happens quite a bit.

Set up a few DMR OFT and Trbo systems you know well. Scan them with ID search on for a few hours, I'm sure you will see this in action. Or just walk away and log with ProScan. When you come back check all the Unknown TGID's in the log.

I attached a log showing this in another thread. http://forums.radioreference.com/uni...ml#post2701410

Thanks,
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Last edited by sibbley; 03-21-2017 at 10:38 AM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:42 AM
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I having a hard time parsing your response to Q2. Can you break it down a bit? It might be that the bb here removed some intended line breaks.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:52 AM
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Q2: Example,

200 152.3075/1 CC 4 - Phillipsburg Board of Education - Phillipsburg BOE - 200 - NFM DMR One Frequency

8 152.3075/2 CC 4 Phillipsburg Board of Education - Unknown - TGID:8 - NFM DMR One Frequency

TGID 8 in the above example is from a completely different system. While TGID 8 was active I was hearing what should have been TGID 100 of the Phillipsburg Board of Education.

I hope the above helped. I originally just copied from ProScan. I removed some of the un-related info.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:35 AM
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What does the first example represent? Is it a valid reception or another false?

And, by the above, do you mean:

Scanner Display:
System: Phillipsburg Board of Education
Department: Phillipsburg BOE
Channel: ??? (I can't figure out what is displayed for channel) TGID 200
Above programmed as a DMR OFT and received on 152.3075 Slot 1 CC 4

In the above case, is displayed TGID 200, but actual received (based on what you are hearing) something else?

2nd line:

Displayed on Scanner:
System: Phillipsburg Board of Education
Department: Unknown
Channel: ?? TGID 8
Received on 152.3075 Slot 2 CC 4

But should have displayed:
System: ???
Department ???
Channel: TGID 100

If you could fill in the ??? or correct my above, it would help.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:07 PM
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Sorry, It's just difficult to describe the false TGID issue. It's much better to see it happening. The TGID 200, first line, was correct for the system. I heard what I was supposed to hear.

The TGID 8, second line was incorrect. The second line was the false TGID. I heard what should have been TGID 100 listed below.

Scanner display should have shown:

System:Phillipsburg Board of Education
Department: Phillipsburg BOA
Channel: TGID 100
Frequency: 152.3075 Slot 2 CC 4

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also just noticed, when the false TGID happens Department is also shown as Unknown.

So, when a false TGID is shown it would look like this:

System:Phillipsburg Board of Education
Department: Unknown
Channel: TGID:8
Frequency: 152.3075 Slot 2 CC 4

I started record. Maybe if I send you an audio file of a false TGID in action, it would help to show what happens.

I only hope I didn't confuse things more...
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:33 PM
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So, the TGID was on the same system, it was just the wrong TGID? That doesn't seem to jive with your post "TGID 8 in the above example is from a completely different system."
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:51 PM
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Paul, don't listen to your scanner. Watch it! You will see what is going on with the false TGID's. Mine can't be the only 436/536 scanners with this problem. When you see Unknown as the department, the TGID will not match the particular system you are currently receiving. In most casses the TGID shown will be from another system entirely.

I'm sorry, I have no other idea on how to explain what I am seeing.
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Old 03-21-2017, 1:08 PM
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Mine does it at well and will include details in a future response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sibbley View Post
Paul, don't listen to your scanner. Watch it! You will see what is going on with the false TGID's. Mine can't be the only 436/536 scanners with this problem. When you see Unknown as the department, the TGID will not match the particular system you are currently receiving. In most casses the TGID shown will be from another system entirely.

I'm sorry, I have no other idea on how to explain what I am seeing.
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Old 03-21-2017, 2:09 PM
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Q1. DMR Capacity Plus a majority of the times. I have no P25 systems I can reliably scan.

Q2. It will show Pittsburgh DMR, TG 133. In reality it is Triconnex DMR, TG 133. The unit ID is correct to the TG on the Triconnex system. Since Pittsburgh does not have a TG 133, it shows the generic tag for the TG, and not the tag assigned to it in the Triconnex system.

Q3. No. It will show it in the incorrect system. Unit ID is correct to the TG though. Since in my case, most of the times the the system it is showing does not actually have a TG with that number, it shows the generic tag.

Q4. No it occurs from the start of the conversation.

Q5. Yes. It will correct when a new channel grant is given.

Q6. I have noticed it more in ID search. I am rarely in ID scan.

Q7.System ID is wrong. I guess you could call it more of a false System ID. The TG and unit ID match up to what would belong together in the correct system.

Q8. It is certainly not a majority of the time. I would guess I get 1or 2 false reads in every 100 hits. 1 or 2 per file on playback.

Connect plus systems just show bad TG. Typically there is no voice traffic with these falses. Usually a key up and pause then back to scanning.

LCN finder works very poorly on Connect Plus.

UHF reception requires mod to battery door.

Analysis features still missing.
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Old 03-21-2017, 2:26 PM
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Q1. On which systems (P25, MOT, DMR, EDACS, LTR) does it occur?

P25 Phase I

Q2. How is it wrong?
If it supposed to be Tg 1234 Tg 5678 is displayed

Q3. Does the scanner display a TGID that is stored in another system?
Not that I have seen

Q4. Does it occur from the middle of a conversation?
No from the start

Q5. Does it keep the wrong TGID display during a conversation?
Yes

Q6. Does it occur also in ID scan mode?
Never is scan only mode

Q7. Does it occur also for system ID, site ID, or unit ID?
I do not believe so

Q8. How often does it occur?
Rare occasion

I will be watching much closer at when and why it occurs and post anything I find. It does seem to only happen for me on systems with 'weaker' signal specifically a simulcast system. The system does have multiple other sites that it scans.

I have not seen it on a P25 system with only 1 simulcast site to scan.
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Old 03-21-2017, 5:22 PM
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I am not sure but would it be helpful to send Uniden recordings of the issue? You can watch it happening via those files.
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Old 03-21-2017, 5:36 PM
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jdolina:

Q2: Confirm that is a made up example (real would be helpful).
Q6: Clarify. ID Scan mode or ID Search mode?
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Old 03-21-2017, 5:58 PM
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I havent experienced any id errors on any of the old original audio types the radio comes with. But i do experience long random ids on dmr cap+ systems. I believe it is not a fault withthe scanner but the trunking setup for dmr, that is spitting out random ids.
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Old 03-22-2017, 6:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UPMan View Post
jdolina:

Q2: Confirm that is a made up example (real would be helpful).
Q6: Clarify. ID Scan mode or ID Search mode?
Yes it was made up , I do not record so I did not have a real one handy. I will watch closely and log for a real one.

Was in ID Search I never use scan.
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:59 PM
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sibbley is correct, it is hard to explain without seeing it. Here is my best effort.

For example, I have 2 DMR systems, PA Digital Network (Multi Site Con+) and Spectrum DMR (Programmed as a 1 Frequency Trunk DMR).

While the scanner is on the PA DIgital Network, I see a talkgroup show up from Spectrum. The Audio is from Spectrum and the talkgroup ID is from spectrum, but the scanner says I am on PA Digital Network. I run all my systems in ID search mode, so it thinks it is a new talkgroup to PA Digital Network.

I hope that makes sense.
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Old 03-22-2017, 2:18 PM
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Q1. On which systems (P25, MOT, DMR, EDACS, LTR) does it occur?
I only have DMR systems. It happens only on DMROneFrequency, not trunked.

Q2. How is it wrong?
It is the TGID from another DMR system and it is random.

Q3. Does the scanner display a TGID that is stored in another system?
Yes. The last previous active DMROneFrequency system.

Q4. Does it occur from the middle of a conversation?
No.

Q5. Does it keep the wrong TGID display during a conversation?
Yes.

Q6. Does it occur also in ID scan mode?
Don't know, I only use search mode.

Q7. Does it occur also for system ID, site ID, or unit ID?
DMR only show UID and that is blank during false TGID.

Q8. How often does it occur?
I notice that it seems releated to when a previous system have both timeslots active with traffic. In that system it displays the conversation on TS1 and when a user releases his PTT the monitoring switches over to TS2 but the display still show the TG and UID from TS1. The audio monitoring switches back and forth between TS1 and TS2 but the display always show the TS1 info. When the BCD536 start to scan and stops on the next active DMROneFrequency system it displays the TGID from the previous TS2 conversation. The problem seems to clear itself if a trunked system is scanned before any active DMROneFrequency system.

This is how it behaved today. Will check if will be any different later on, but as I recall this is the only scenario that will show false TGs in my scanner.

/Ubbe
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Old 03-22-2017, 3:01 PM
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Paul, if you can enter 2 different DMR trunked systems into one FL. When there is activity on a TG turn the volume knob until the scanner moves to the other system. It will show the TG from the prior system many times, but not always. This is the fastest way to see the issue in real time.
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Old 03-22-2017, 3:14 PM
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It happens on DMR conversions of former LTR or Legacy Motorola SmartNet/SmartZone systems. I set it for ID Search, and suddenly there is an TAG already on the TG that pops up on an system that has NEVER HAD TGs LISTED !!! After I went in to look, the ID Tagging was from the DEPRECATED Motorola SmartNet system! How in Hades did it grab Tags from an system that was fully deprecated and thus not in the global listings anywhere for normal access, and is NOT in the displayed systems lists? I now begin to think maybe we have an security risk here! No scanner should be able to grab any data from an system that is deprecated and thus removed from normal display/activity....

Specifically...
THIS SYSTEM - Warren Township Schools Trunking System, Warren Township, Indiana - Scanner Frequencies

I thought maybe this was some hidden function in the MotoTRBO CC stream that the BCD436HP had found and was displaying. Now I see its not, and will have to go in and kill the whole new listing of TGS until proper Ident is done....

I just hope there is not also false positives on the TG numbering going on here!
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Last edited by milf; 03-22-2017 at 3:27 PM..
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Old 03-22-2017, 3:42 PM
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1. Motorola Single-Channel DMR.
2. Two ways: 1) TGID from a different system, and 2) sometimes the scanner will treat already-saved TGIDs as new ones.
3. Yes, but I've yet to notice any particular pattern to it.
4. No, it'll usually happen when the scanner first lands on the system.
5. Yes, but if I resume scanning and come back to it it'll show the correct ID.
6. Since all of the DMR systems I monitor I monitor in "ID SEARCH" mode, I couldn't be too sure about ID scan.
7. I have my scanner set to only display the TGID, so I don't know if the radio IDs are also affected.
8. It occurs very rarely, which is kind of why I have trouble identifying any particular pattern to it.

Also, another thing:
I have the local DMR-MARC repeater in my scan list. So, if, say someone keys off of the North America TG and there's an ongoing conversation on Texas Statewide, the scanner will have the audio from Texas Statewide but show the North America channel as still being the active TG. This is not the only system that it does this with, but since it is the most active DMR system in my area, I tend to notice it more.

I have two 536's (one purchased new in March of 2015 and the other purchased used in October of 2016) and they both have this issue.
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