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Utility Listening - Discussions regarding monitoring government, military, aircraft, ship, and other misc communications in the HF/MW/LF bands.

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Old 08-13-2018, 9:58 AM
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Default NIST proposed budget includes shutdown of WWV and WWVH

Only thing that I wonder is it all WWV/WWVH transmitters or just some bands? Let's hope this does not come to fruition.

https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist...-wwv-and-wwvh/
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:18 AM
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IMO they are redundant, now that you can get an even more accurate time signal from GPS globally 24/7/365, rather than only at night when the signal propagation conditions are right.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:01 AM
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Well, it would be redundant if all the devices in service can receive the GPS signal. Can they?
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:11 AM
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They cannot. Countless atomic clocks and wristwatches (i.e. Casio G-SHOCK) rely on the WWVB signal.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eorange View Post
They cannot. Countless atomic clocks and wristwatches (i.e. Casio G-SHOCK) rely on the WWVB signal.
That's what I was thinking.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
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Well, it would be redundant if all the devices in service can receive the GPS signal. Can they?
By that logic, you could never retire any obsolete technology.

GPS uses a smaller antenna that is far more efficient than a HF loop when built into watches and similar devices. And as mentioned before, GPS s available 24/7/365, isn't dependent on atmospheric conditions for propagation, and covers the entire globe, rather than just CONUS.

It makes sense to give some warning before shutting down the HF stations so that device manufacturers have some time to transition, but other than support for legacy devices, ther's no compelling reason to keep WWV & friends running.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eorange View Post
They cannot. Countless atomic clocks and wristwatches (i.e. Casio G-SHOCK) rely on the WWVB signal.
It does not specifically say that WWVB is included in the proposal (whether it's not, or the details aren't there).
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonwienke View Post
GPS uses a smaller antenna that is far more efficient than a HF loop when built into watches and similar devices. And as mentioned before, GPS s available 24/7/365, isn't dependent on atmospheric conditions for propagation, and covers the entire globe, rather than just CONUS.
There's just that pesky line-of-sight thing. Ever tried to get a decent GPS signal in a building?
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderknight View Post
It does not specifically say that WWVB is included in the proposal (whether it's not, or the details aren't there).
I was wondering about that. Assuming WWVB would stay - how much could they possibly save by keeping the infrastructure for WWVB and only axe-ing WWV and WWVH?

I have a feeling this proposed cut will die.
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caylorman View Post
There's just that pesky line-of-sight thing. Ever tried to get a decent GPS signal in a building?
Yes, on a daily basis:
https://1drv.ms/v/s!ApJIS-l4xqPtgvBTKC_FuPNTLonOsQ

In the linked video, I test a GPS modded 436 scanner. The red & green flashing LED on the bottom right of the front panel goes solid green when satellite lock is lost. To break satellite lock, I have to take it down into the basement and put it inside a metal safe.
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:39 PM
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GPS reception varies greatly on the chip used. I recall my first GPS navigator would lose signal all the time and was slow to lock. Also, some chips are very slow to report they've lost their lock.
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:45 PM
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With GPS and NTP, WWV is getting a bit out of date. I can't remember the last time I used WWV to manually set a clock.

Originally it was great for high seas navigation, but with GPS in nearly everything, it's not as useful as it was. The power, upkeep, maintenance, redundant systems, etc. all get expensive. Maybe it's time to let it go.


However, I do have a clock at home that uses WWVB, and I'd like that to keep working.
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Old 08-13-2018, 5:10 PM
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I have neither GPS devices nor WWVB clocks, but no longer set my clocks to WWV's HF service, due to propagation issues. The signal invariably fades out just before the tone marking the next minute. In fact, sometimes I can't even hear which minute is coming up. Instead, I've been synchronizing my PC to NIST's time servers, and then using the PC as a reference in manually setting my other clocks. Having said that, I wonder if those time servers are on the chopping block, as well. If so, maybe I'll just build myself a sundial and check the local time during daylight hours, then add the appropriate number of hours for UTC. Of course, I'd still be roughly 15 minutes out, since I don't live right on the meridian for our time zone. But then, it's a cheap solution!

As for WWV's propagation forecasts at minute 18, I now access them on the web at https://services.swpc.noaa.gov/text/3-day-forecast.txt . If that gets eliminated too, I guess I'll just have to determine the propagation conditions myself by looking for DX on the shortwave bands. That's like going back in time to my low-tech childhood, when I first started listening to shortwave.
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Old 08-13-2018, 5:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB46 View Post
Instead, I've been synchronizing my PC to NIST's time servers, and then using the PC as a reference in manually setting my other clocks. Having said that, I wonder if those time servers are on the chopping block, as well.
There are plenty of other internet time servers if NIST shuts theirs down.
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Old 08-13-2018, 5:31 PM
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Dont forget, everyone doesn't use ALE so WWV/WWVH is still used to help figure out which bands are open and best for voice operation.
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Old 08-13-2018, 6:53 PM
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Quote:
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There are plenty of other internet time servers if NIST shuts theirs down.
True, and often a couple of the NIST servers don't respond, anyway. Sometimes I have to use "utcnist.colorado.edu". The Windows 7 time sync dialogue also lists "time.windows.com", but that has never worked for me.
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Old 08-13-2018, 8:23 PM
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Still living in the past at this QTH. I still use WWV for setting clocks every DST change, for general prop checks, and on the rare occasion my R71a or my R75 float off-zero beat, to massage the SSB pots with their signals.
They will be missed here. There's CHU Canada on 3330, 7850, and 14670kHz for those, that is if I can even get a reliable enough signal from them here.
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Old 08-13-2018, 8:36 PM
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Well ain't that just great. After I've spent good money to buy radio controlled clocks and a couple of watches. I hate changing time twice a year and resetting clocks after a power outage. Guess I'm lazy.
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Old 08-13-2018, 9:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankdrebbin View Post
Well ain't that just great. After I've spent good money to buy radio controlled clocks and a couple of watches. I hate changing time twice a year and resetting clocks after a power outage. Guess I'm lazy.
Those usually use the 60KHz signal from WWVB.
The proposed shutdown was to WWV and WWVH.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgescan View Post
Still living in the past at this QTH. I still use WWV for setting clocks every DST change, for general prop checks, and on the rare occasion my R71a or my R75 float off-zero beat, to massage the SSB pots with their signals.
They will be missed here. There's CHU Canada on 3330, 7850, and 14670kHz for those, that is if I can even get a reliable enough signal from them here.
My R75 seems to be pretty accurate for zero beating signals, although when using that technique for ECSS on SW broadcasters, I find that it depends on the station. Some stations appear to be slightly off frequency, while others are dead on. Most of the ham stations are right on frequency. Those that are not are often told so by their contacts, or they eventually correct their settings during QSOs without having to be told.

As for CHU, I can hear them pretty well after dark on 7850, but lately I haven't been able to find them on 14670 at any time of the day. WWV in Colorado is usually stronger, but then it's also closer, and my best reception here is from the southerly direction, anyway.
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