DSD+ TIII Control Channels

[woodpecker]

I see a lot of Tier III control channels but DSD+ doesn't show much info on them, is this becuase the system is not very active, it pops up a list of neighbor sites but doesn't show any freq or channel info? I see very little in the way of system messages as well, mainly just network time.

 

[cg]

I have several sites from a Hytera Tier III system in range. I get the Network, Site, System Date & Time when I start it. However, I never get beyond a "?" and "CC" for the control channel. Hytera has Control Channel encryption as an option so I am thinking that is what I am looking at. The voice channels are in the clear for the most part with one or two users encrypting.

chris

 

[mtindor]

I have several sites from a Hytera Tier III system in range. I get the Network, Site, System Date & Time when I start it. However, I never get beyond a "?" and "CC" for the control channel. Hytera has Control Channel encryption as an option so I am thinking that is what I am looking at. The voice channels are in the clear for the most part with one or two users encrypting.

chris

Have you taken a raw audio sample of the control channel and sent it to the author? Depending on what is actually happening, it may be something the author can improve upon. The author doesn't necessarily have access to all the variants of DMR out there.

Please consider sending some raw audio. You can capture raw audio by pressing "r" in DSDPlus, waiting a minute or so, and then pressing "r" again. It'll save the raw audio file in your your DSDPlus folder. Then just zip it up, rename the zip file into a .zap file and send.

Up to you, but a lot of things only get supported when the author has appropriate samples to work with.

mike

 

[mrscanner2008]

do you have all the frequencies in the frequencies file ?

I have a Tier III system here with RAS and DSD FL decode it right.

 

[woodpecker]

do you have all the frequencies in the frequencies file ?

I have a Tier III system here with RAS and DSD FL decode it right.

No I'm just monitoring the control channel, I'm not sure what's going on with the system, it seems to have masses of control channels but I've not seen any voice channels, or do control channels turn into voice channels?

 

[mtindor]

No I'm just monitoring the control channel, I'm not sure what's going on with the system, it seems to have masses of control channels but I've not seen any voice channels, or do control channels turn into voice channels?

Can you post some screenshots of DSDPlus? Can you capture and link to some raw audio?


Control channel data is only carried on one timeslot. Voice can always occur on the same frequency, on the other timeslot.

Mike

 

[mmc-dsm]

Monitoring a TIII control channel will not give you a lot of information apart from channel numbers (kinda like LCNs) which corresponds to frequencies. You need to know the voice frequencies and enter it into your frequencies file. It is not like P25 where frequencies populate from the control channel.

@cg : I'm not 100% sure but CC encryption would give you no information at all instead of having what you have right now.

 

[woodpecker]

Here's a screen shot, it seems to be Motorola with RAS on, it shows 3 neighbor CCs but that's all I see.

Should I see some voice LCNs?

 

[slicerwizard]

That's all you'll see until there's some voice traffic. Perfectly normal.

When voice comes along, you'll see activity on various slot numbers. It's up to you to match those with RF carriers that become active at the same time. Then you can add entries to the DSDPlus.frequencies file.

 

[cg]

Have you taken a raw audio sample of the control channel and sent it to the author? Depending on what is actually happening, it may be something the author can improve upon. The author doesn't necessarily have access to all the variants of DMR out there.
mike

Already done a couple times.
Here is the Hytera info.
https://www.hytera-mobilfunk.com/en...oof-radio-communication-with-dmr-from-hytera/

chris

 

[woodpecker]

There are no audio frames on the CCs I'm monitoring, maybe they are not in use yet or have very low traffic levels.

 

[rattlerbb01]

I have a few questions on this topic as well:

I have listened to two separate Tier III systems, Texas Bigfoot in Houston and Crosspoint Communications in Dallas. Both showed system as "H2" and sites in the format 7.1, 1.2, 1.6 etc...

So two questions: 1.) why would two separate systems show the same "H2" network, and 2.) on the site listed as H2-1.6, when I used my BCD436HP to monitor the control channel, it gave me Net: 1 and Site: 5. Why the difference between DSDPlus and Uniden's analyzer?

 

[mtindor]

I have a few questions on this topic as well:

I have listened to two separate Tier III systems, Texas Bigfoot in Houston and Crosspoint Communications in Dallas. Both showed system as "H2" and sites in the format 7.1, 1.2, 1.6 etc...

So two questions: 1.) why would two separate systems show the same "H2" network, and 2.) on the site listed as H2-1.6, when I used my BCD436HP to monitor the control channel, it gave me Net: 1 and Site: 5. Why the difference between DSDPlus and Uniden's analyzer?

RE: Question #1 -- It all depends upon how the operators of the systems set it up. There is no law or limitation that prevents two different operators from setting up a huge-model (H) system with a Network ID of 2. Maybe the two system operators are working together on a combined wide area system, but probably not.

RE: Question #2 -- I'm not a trunking or programming guru. The reason for this really needs to be explained in greater detail. I'm not sure if I'm qualified to explain it or not. But I'll try to explain it the best I can later, if somebody else doesn't come along with the proper explanation.

Mike

 

[slicerwizard]

on the site listed as H2-1.6, when I used my BCD436HP to monitor the control channel, it gave me Net: 1 and Site: 5. Why the difference between DSDPlus and Uniden's analyzer?

Simples. When data such as network ID or site number are sent over the air as binary values, the lowest used ID or number, which is 1, is sent as binary zero, an ID of 2 is sent as a binary 1, etc. DSD+ converts the raw OTA values to their true values, while your scanner just dumbly displays the raw data.

Additionally, TIII site IDs are made up of an area value plus a site number value, so Uniden's "Site 5" is patently incorrect.

 

[mtindor]

Simples. When data such as network ID or site number are sent over the air as binary values, the lowest used ID or number, which is 1, is sent as binary zero, an ID of 2 is sent as a binary 1, etc. DSD+ converts the raw OTA values to their true values, while your scanner just dumbly displays the raw data.

Additionally, TIII site IDs are made up of an area value plus a site number value, so Uniden's "Site 5" is patently incorrect.

Thank you. Now I don't have to try to explain what somebody just explained to me a week ago

Mike

 

[mtindor]

I have a few questions on this topic as well:

I have listened to two separate Tier III systems, Texas Bigfoot in Houston and Crosspoint Communications in Dallas. Both showed system as "H2" and sites in the format 7.1, 1.2, 1.6 etc...

Just curious. If you look at the command window (dos window, whatever you want to call it) while it is monitoring the control channel of a DMR Tier III site, it should show a SysCode (14 bits, binary display). For a particular site, could you:

List the SysCode that shows up in the command window - 1101xxxxxxxxxx
List what DSDPlus shows in its main window for the Network model, Network, Area ID, Site ID (ex: H2-1.6)
List whether its showing as DMR Tier III or DMR Tier III (MOT) ?

If you can get the Syscode and the network/site info in A and B, they should be from the same system. Please don't get a SysCode from one system for A and then produce network/site information from another monitored system in B. That'd be extremely confusing.

Thanks

Mike

 

[rattlerbb01]

Just curious. If you look at the command window (dos window, whatever you want to call it) while it is monitoring the control channel of a DMR Tier III site, it should show a SysCode (14 bits, binary display). For a particular site, could you:

List the SysCode that shows up in the command window - 1101xxxxxxxxxx
List what DSDPlus shows in its main window for the Network model, Network, Area ID, Site ID (ex: H2-1.6)
List whether its showing as DMR Tier III or DMR Tier III (MOT) ?

If you can get the Syscode and the network/site info in A and B, they should be from the same system. Please don't get a SysCode from one system for A and then produce network/site information from another monitored system in B. That'd be extremely confusing.

Thanks

Mike

Thank you for the reply but I’ll have to wait on getting back to you. I’m in Tulsa and will be back through Dallas this weekend and can get that one for you. I won’t be back in Navasota or Houston for the Bigfoot system for a few weeks at least.

So long story short, don’t go off Uniden’s analyzer for Tier III, use DSD’s region/site.

 

[mtindor]

Thank you for the reply but I’ll have to wait on getting back to you. I’m in Tulsa and will be back through Dallas this weekend and can get that one for you. I won’t be back in Navasota or Houston for the Bigfoot system for a few weeks at least.

So long story short, don’t go off Uniden’s analyzer for Tier III, use DSD’s region/site.

Yes, that would be my suggestion to anyone. I really wish I had a DTIII site local to me to monitor.

Mike

 

[redbeard]

Yes, that would be my suggestion to anyone. I really wish I had a DTIII site local to me to monitor.

Mike

The one close to me I can't hear from home since it's down in the valley. The info I've gotten so far has been from a couple of drives down there and sitting in a nearby parking lot. Considering putting my 436 in an ammo can and hiding it nearby running LCN finder.

 

[mtindor]

The one close to me I can't hear from home since it's down in the valley. The info I've gotten so far has been from a couple of drives down there and sitting in a nearby parking lot. Considering putting my 436 in an ammo can and hiding it nearby running LCN finder.

Interesting. I forgot about that one -- but I know I wouldn't hear it from here anyway. Looks like you have all LCNs but one found (according to DB) so either you must have run LCN Finder before or must have been using DSDPlus to map it out.

LOL 436 in an ammo can. I would never have thought about that, but it's a great idea. I'm quite sure you are crafty enough to hide it where nobody would find it, and to make sure that nobody saw you hiding it lol.

m