2m range issues

[Gavin7]

Hey Gavin !

Welcome to the hobby

So you are new to all this, huh ?.....no big deal- every ham was once in your shoes. Sit back and take a deep breath, and lets explore what's happening.
Before starting, here is one pearl of advice I will throw out: Don't immediately think something major has gone wrong when things aren't working. It's all too natural to trip-off, imagining the worst, and start pulling your equipment apart looking for demons. Start with the simple things and work inward from there.

In your case, for instance, you say you can't be heard from your home station ~5-7 miles away. even with a 'cheap' antenna. There is something definitely wrong here.... even nasty old WW2 surplus coax cable should work to talk that short distance. Its not the quality of your coax, your 'feedline losses' or that you have a "cheap" radio. Something else is going on.

You didn't say if you could hear anything on either your base or mobile. Can you receive an NOAA weather station, or any 2 metre repeater ? - mobile or base ?
My guess is "no".... especially with your base station. I'll stick to that radio.

You just gave me a great idea I have some NOAA channels that are fairly weak but I can receive them on my handheld so I’ll check and see if I can rx them

Start simple--- what is the condition of your coax feed to your tower antenna ?
Have you a volt-ohm meter and can you do a continuity check of this cable ? Is the line patent ? that is, is it close to zero Ohms connector to connector, the shielding too... and not shorted out ?

I'll bet right there you will find your problem. **

I’ll try some of that

Are the connectors soldered properly ? Do they mate zero-Ohms to the radio, to the antenna ? That VOM is worth its weight in gold. ..... Repeat these tests with your mobile....

For your base radio, you might try a different antenna-- your "cheap" one may be breaking your heart-- so don't be afraid to shuck it. Try a simple quarter wave vertical -- one can be thrown together in minutes...

That’s what I’m figuring although the loss calculation for my coax sure doesn’t help as I am losing about 1/2 to 3/4 of my tx power

In my lab I used to have a tired old bromide posted on the wall:

"KISS....keep it simple and scientific" (not the usual KISS .....)

I'd love to hear how this is working out for you....
........ remember-- there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.

Will try to keep everyone posted

Lauri

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**
I had this very issue a year ago when our 450 MHz radio went sour. Signals that were full quieting suddenly went 'scratchy' -- it turned out to be the connector at the base of the antenna was pulled loose by a curious burro (the teeth marks were the give-away)--- The tasty feed line has since been moved


View attachment 123441



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[Gavin7]

Lauri .... KUDDOS... A TRUE ham.. Willing to HELP a new ham get started...
Its nice to own multi hundred dollar MOTO JUNK.. but most hams start with hand me down or as the elite say " chinese feces pieces ".. Gavin7, Keep going, Experiment, Build your antennas, Build circuits, Enjoy the freedom you earned.. I own "chinese feces pieces" and Moto junk as well.. Both work GREAT on the ham bands for HAM operation.. Been doing ham for over 40 years.. Welcome aboard

Thank you all for the support. Radio has been a passion of mine for years now. Just finally going all in.

 

[Gavin7]

One of the difficulties I’m working with in my area is the terrain I’m at about 1300ft ASL with most of the hills around being between 12-1400 ft ASL but when I’m mobile I’m often blocked by hills so my eventual goal is to get a repeater up. I have one hill top in mind that used to have a fire tower on it and is around 1400 ft ASL it has an amazing line of site distance. I’ll see if I can post pics

 

[Gavin7]

Here’s a photo of the 1400ft site. My QTH is just outside the left of the photo about 8-10km away


And here is the view from the top of my home tower i have Been thinking of adding another 10-20 ft to clear the trees a bit better.

 

[dcr_inc]

Where are you located? Where are you trying to talk? (other than everywhere)

 

[Gavin7]

Where are you located? Where are you trying to talk? (other than everywhere)

Well to not be super specific about 40 min from Renfrew

 

[Gavin7]

Well to not be super specific about 40 min from Renfrew

I’m looking to talk around a 40 km radius as I work in construction and most of the time I’m in poor to no cell service and I’d like a backup in case of an emergency. Plus I generally like radio so dx is something I’m interested in

 

[Gavin7]

Where are you located? Where are you trying to talk? (other than everywhere)

I also 4 Wheel and snowmobile so again having a way to talk to my QTH where there is usually someone around or a local listening in is good if for instance I get stuck or break down 20km from home on a snowmobile in minus 20 to minus 30. I for sure wouldn’t rely on it but it would be nice to have as a backup

 

[Gavin7]

Just curious I am trying to decide between a tram 1481 and a diamond x510 anyone know which is better?

 

[AK9R]

Just curious I am trying to decide between a tram 1481 and a diamond x510 anyone know which is better?

My gut feeling is that any Tram antenna is an inexpensive copy of a Diamond or Comet antenna. Copies often use lower quality materials and/or less reliable construction methods. I'm sure a few folks will chime in with "my Tram antenna works great and hasn't failed me". I still don't think Tram antennas are good quality antennas. That's my opinion.

That said, Diamonds and Comets aren't the greatest, either. The longer versions are shipped in two sections and the installer has to put them together. The X510 is in three sections. There's a joint between those sections which could leak water into the fiberglass shell. Also, Diamonds and Comets have a joint at the bottom of the antenna where the fiberglass shell joins the base. That joint is another possible leak point.

What trait does the Diamond X510 have that you think will be of benefit to you?

 

[dlwtrunked]

So I have recently put up a 60ft tower and currently have a cheap whip antenna and 100ft of coax attached. I realize that is not ideal but I was kinda surprised that I only get about 5-8 km the radio hooked to the tower it a 5w and I am using a mobile 25w with mag antenna to do range tests. I realize that I should have a much better antenna but just haven’t gotten there yet any other ideas to improve range. The other issue is that I live in an area with a lot of hills however I tested from about 10 km away with basically line of site and still got nothing

Your line-of-site range to the horizon with a 60 ft tower is about 1.2*square_root(60)=9 mile or about 14 km for a spherical earth. And one adds the similar calculation fro the other end. So for another end with an antenna at say 6 ft, one adds about 1.2*square_root(6)=3 miles or about 5 km. So *at best* (no hills and enough power) that would be about 9+3=12 miles or 19 km. Put one single good hill between and range will be far less and power will not help--only a higher antenna. A large enough in area 6 ft high or higher hill (above spherical earth) between could effectively kill that direction depending on where it is (close to your tower not a problem but "close" and in the path, to other end, assuming still a 6 ft high antenna, a possible problem). Add in your relatively low transmit power and I would say your results are not unusual, may be even better than "average", deoending on how one defines "average". Always remember that at VHF/UHF height is generally more important than power.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

Oh Wow!
That did open a can of worms

For years my professional choice for many fixed-base V/UHF antenna was the Antenex company- which became part of Laird Technologies quite a few years ago (am I showing my age ? )
In fact the burro-taste test'd antenna above is an Antenex (VG4505) UHF vertical.

That said, I also purchased quite a few Tram-Browning antenna over the years- both for myself and the government- notably their UHF 400-480 MHz Yagi's.
I looked them over very carefully and have found them just as good as the Lairds- and at a much better price.
I was impressed that these antenna were solidly welded aluminum with commercial grade BNC connectors, stainless steel hardware....
The Trams we installed are still in service as far as I know.... plus I have several about my ranch that are just as pristine as when we put them up---- and they have to endure arctic winters up here.

I have a friend- a new ham, that wanted to put a radio in her Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Goodness Gracious-- drill a hole in one of those and snaking a coax cable down from the roof ?.. not this cowgirl !

We went the Tram thru-the-glass route.

They mounted easily and secure - best of all: an SWR of 1:1 no tuning necessary!
_______________________________________________________

Am I pleased with Tram antennas ?

Just one voice so far (giggles)

Lauri

 

[vagrant]

A buddy and I tried a Tram 1481 and they both failed due to water ingress. I even wrapped the joints with Scotch 33+, coax tape and 33+ again over that. Avoid it.

Two VHF/UHF antennas that have not failed for 10+ years are Diamond X50A and Tram 1480. I have two each of those and zero problems. The Tram 1480 also has a connection joint and that too has Scotch 33+, coax tape and 33+ again. Zero water and SWR issues. As previously noted, they are not the best antennas, but they are inexpensive and either one will beat the pants off your magnet mount antenna.

If you are planning on putting up a repeater, perhaps go with LDF4-50A coaxial cable now for most of the run and pigtail as needed with LMR-400UF. You will appreciate the premium coax if you run a UHF band repeater like a Quantar. There is even better coax, but the cost and fighting with it during installation can be unfriendly.

P.S. I also enjoy locations that lack cellular and radio coverage. With that in mind I carry a Garmin inReach SE+ and have an annual plan that costs around $12/month. You can hit the button and call for help as well as TX/RX text messages to whomever if not an emergency. It will send your location as well using the built-in GPS. When you compare the costs for a good repeater system, the Garmin solution is inexpensive and the hills are not a problem as it uses the Iridium satellites. Alternative to that is the Icom IC-SAT100 handheld and mobile radios that also use the Iridium satellites. You will need an account for those radios as well, but they work very well with a view of the sky, or an external antenna. I even tested one in a vehicle, but it was hit and miss using the stock antenna on the handheld.

 

[Gavin7]

Oh Wow!
That did open a can of worms

For years my professional choice for many fixed-base V/UHF antenna was the Antenex company- which became part of Laird Technologies quite a few years ago (am I showing my age ? )
In fact the burro-taste test'd antenna above is an Antenex (VG4505) UHF vertical.

That said, I also purchased quite a few Tram-Browning antenna over the years- both for myself and the government- notably their UHF 400-480 MHz Yagi's.
I looked them over very carefully and have found them just as good as the Lairds- and at a much better price.
I was impressed that these antenna were solidly welded aluminum with commercial grade BNC connectors, stainless steel hardware....
The Trams we installed are still in service as far as I know.... plus I have several about my ranch that are just as pristine as when we put them up---- and they have to endure arctic winters up here.

I have a friend- a new ham, that wanted to put a radio in her Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Goodness Gracious-- drill a hole in one of those and snaking a coax cable down from the roof ?.. not this cowgirl !

We went the Tram thru-the-glass route.

They mounted easily and secure - best of all: an SWR of 1:1 no tuning necessary!
_______________________________________________________

Am I pleased with Tram antennas ?

Just one voice so far (giggles)

Lauri

View attachment 123468

Lol should have known that would be a can of worms I’m thinking the reason a lot of people have issues with the trams is they get the fibreglass ones with joints and don’t seal them well as for the aluminum ones you are describing it sounds like they are built well.

 

[Gavin7]

Your line-of-site range to the horizon with a 60 ft tower is about 1.2*square_root(60)=9 mile or about 14 km for a spherical earth. And one adds the similar calculation fro the other end. So for another end with an antenna at say 6 ft, one adds about 1.2*square_root(6)=3 miles or about 5 km. So *at best* (no hills and enough power) that would be about 9+3=12 miles or 19 km. Put one single good hill between and range will be far less and power will not help--only a higher antenna. A large enough in area 6 ft high or higher hill (above spherical earth) between could effectively kill that direction depending on where it is (close to your tower not a problem but "close" and in the path, to other end, assuming still a 6 ft high antenna, a possible problem). Add in your relatively low transmit power and I would say your results are not unusual, may be even better than "average", deoending on how one defines "average". Always remember that at VHF/UHF height is generally more important than power.

I understand the horizon principle I should have mentioned that it’s a 60ft tower on a hill that is at least 100ft above the surrounding area. Although your point is very valid as when I did the test I was on a road that dips in and out of valleys and even within that range it would go in and out. The one thing that made me wonder what was up with the range was when I was about 13 km away on a hill with basically line of sight. So now I am focusing on improving my QTH

 

[Gavin7]

My gut feeling is that any Tram antenna is an inexpensive copy of a Diamond or Comet antenna. Copies often use lower quality materials and/or less reliable construction methods. I'm sure a few folks will chime in with "my Tram antenna works great and hasn't failed me". I still don't think Tram antennas are good quality antennas. That's my opinion.

That said, Diamonds and Comets aren't the greatest, either. The longer versions are shipped in two sections and the installer has to put them together. The X510 is in three sections. There's a joint between those sections which could leak water into the fiberglass shell. Also, Diamonds and Comets have a joint at the bottom of the antenna where the fiberglass shell joins the base. That joint is another possible leak point.

What trait does the Diamond X510 have that you think will be of benefit to you?

Mostly that it’s in my price range and is a decent (I’m not saying great) antenna I want a fair bit of gain as any repeaters I might get in to are between 40 minutes to 1hr and 20 minutes away. If you have any suggestions as to an antenna that meets that criteria I’m open.

 

[Gavin7]

A buddy and I tried a Tram 1481 and they both failed due to water ingress. I even wrapped the joints with Scotch 33+, coax tape and 33+ again over that. Avoid it.

Two VHF/UHF antennas that have not failed for 10+ years are Diamond X50A and Tram 1480. I have two each of those and zero problems. The Tram 1480 also has a connection joint and that too has Scotch 33+, coax tape and 33+ again. Zero water and SWR issues. As previously noted, they are not the best antennas, but they are inexpensive and either one will beat the pants off your magnet mount antenna.

If you are planning on putting up a repeater, perhaps go with LDF4-50A coaxial cable now for most of the run and pigtail as needed with LMR-400UF. You will appreciate the premium coax if you run a UHF band repeater like a Quantar. There is even better coax, but the cost and fighting with it during installation can be unfriendly.

P.S. I also enjoy locations that lack cellular and radio coverage. With that in mind I carry a Garmin inReach SE+ and have an annual plan that costs around $12/month. You can hit the button and call for help as well as TX/RX text messages to whomever if not an emergency. It will send your location as well using the built-in GPS. When you compare the costs for a good repeater system, the Garmin solution is inexpensive and the hills are not a problem as it uses the Iridium satellites. Alternative to that is the Icom IC-SAT100 handheld and mobile radios that also use the Iridium satellites. You will need an account for those radios as well, but they work very well with a view of the sky, or an external antenna. I even tested one in a vehicle, but it was hit and miss using the stock antenna on the handheld.

Thank you so much to everyone for all the input and suggestions I can’t believe all of the help I am getting. Thank you for the coax suggestion I’ll have to look into that. Also I definitely want to the sat radio sounds like a great possibility.

 

[Gavin7]

Sorry for the double post. How do you delete a post.

 

[AK9R]

...any repeaters I might get in to are between 40 minutes to 1hr and 20 minutes away.

When it comes to RF, what matters is straight line distance in miles, kilometers, furlongs, etc. (unless you are far enough separated for the Great Circle to come into play). If there are obstructions between the transmitter and receiver, such as mountains, buildings, airplanes, large flocks of birds, that will make a difference, too.

Sorry for the double post. How do you delete a post.

Only moderators can do that...which I did.

 

[Gavin7]

I have a diamond antenna coming in the mail. I can’t wait to put it up.
Also I checked today and I could rx a NOAA channel with a rubber duck but no rx with it hooked up to the tower. Then I noticed a pigtail I have that goes from pl259 to sma was faulty. Hoping to eliminate that all together when I hook up the base station radio.