Alexander County not likely to convert to VIPER anytime soon

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bbeam

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A reliable source told me that VIPER was discussed in a recent meeting and the county commissioners have no desire to support converting from VHF to VIPER. The commissioners also did not support adding another receive site to improve coverage of the current system.

If others have better or additional information I would enjoy hearing the updates.
 

RaleighGuy

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While they may not convert, recently LE working with feds were heard and 8xxxx Radio IDs were seen on SW Event TGs
 

reconrider8

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Halifax was the same way until the vhf equipment started to fail and they couldn't find replacement parts for their gear. Now they are looking at switching over in the next year or so.
 

trumpetman

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Odd that Alexander has all four of their dispatch channels patched to VIPER if they have no interest in cutting over?

Also, radio technology in general is expensive these days. I'm curious what exactly is costly about VIPER and what you consider alternatives and their cost factors to be?
 

reconrider8

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What about viper is costly? I’m not trying to argue anything just trying to learn.
Halifax's excuse was the radios and the upkeep of said radios. if something happens and you have to buy a new radio thats expensive and then if you need more coverage you have to build your own site in a nut shell. the advantage of that is the infrastructure is already in place to use so you dont have to build you own system out from the ground up
 

bbeam

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Odd that Alexander has all four of their dispatch channels patched to VIPER if they have no interest in cutting over?

Also, radio technology in general is expensive these days. I'm curious what exactly is costly about VIPER and what you consider alternatives and their cost factors to be?
Correct they have patched the dispatch channels to VIPER but I believe they are only carried on the Barrett mountain tower.

As far as cost, others will know more than me, but the portable radios for example for VIPER are $2500 - $3500 and the multi-band are more expensive, whereas a new VHF radio is less than $500.
 

rescueman433

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Correct they have patched the dispatch channels to VIPER but I believe they are only carried on the Barrett mountain tower.

As far as cost, others will know more than me, but the portable radios for example for VIPER are $2500 - $3500 and the multi-band are more expensive, whereas a new VHF radio is less than $500.
What radios are you using for public safety that are less than $500.00? I may need to look into those.
 

bbeam

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There are currently a couple new Motorola HT 1250 for sale on Ebay. This radio has been around for a long time and I'm surprised new ones will pop up from time to time but I've purchased two over the last year and they are great. Good used XTS 5000 and pretty easy to find.
 

rescueman433

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There are currently a couple new Motorola HT 1250 for sale on Ebay. This radio has been around for a long time and I'm surprised new ones will pop up from time to time but I've purchased two over the last year and they are great. Good used XTS 5000 and pretty easy to find.
I thought you meant a new unit…my fault for assuming. We try to purchase new with warranty and tuned for CYA. We do use ebay for limited accessories and chargers if needed.
 

trumpetman

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As usual everyone jumps straight to the subscriber cost argument without taking infrastructure costs into mind (or worse, more expensive scanner means the system must be awful). A properly maintained radio system with a reasonable expectation of coverage is expensive. Subscribers are expensive too, but that's what bonds, matching grants, and group buy orders are for. It's absolutely mind blowing to me that people are still using eBay to purchase radios used in IDLH environments and trusting out-dated non-maintained infrastructure. For a few hundred more you can get a bare-bones Motorola, Harris, or EFJ/Kenwood radio new with a warranty and reliable knowledge of where it came from.

To reign in my reply back to the topic at hand, I'm seeing several unique radio IDs in use on the dispatch talkgroups in Alexander last night and some this morning which leads me to believe that the county has already started some form of transition to 800. I'm not sure if this is a misunderstanding or if the county suddenly made a 180 but either way I would recommend following-up with more than one source and see what is really going on. Again it seems odd to go through the trouble to add console resources and full time patches and subscribers for no reason. I've heard on several occasions that "[insert county here] will never move to [insert radio system/technology/band here]" and usually the exact opposite happens or is actively in progress when the right people are asked. Also these migrations take time, some folks assume if there hasn't been forward motion in some time that it's a failed endeavor. Nothing moves fast in government, and it moves even slower when you're trying to do anything with a radio system.

TL;DR: trust but verify, especially when info is coming from a field-user. also don't buy used radios for dangerous situations.
 

jthorpe

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These countries That has chosen to stay on there own system are smart viper is very costly
What's more costly? The initial cost of radio equipment or the cost of being on an island with little possibility of communicating successfully to the outside world when disaster strikes? Yes, subscriber units are expensive but maintaining VIPER and the VIPER sites are the responsibility of the state. I prefer being able to communicate not only statewide, but with other agencies who come to assist me in the event of a major incident.

And lets not forget the quality of the subscriber unit agencies will buy. Getting old used gear isn't a great move, even for VHF or UHF radios. More than once I've seen agencies try to cut costs by getting less than ideal subscriber equipment only to pay more later when it fails.
 

sloop

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jthorpe, interoperability but.....
1-Viper is more expensive. Consider a municipality with 12 fire departments each with 6 officers and 12 EMTs. Each will need a new radio @ approx. $400 each and radios for each truck at approx. $9000 each. Conventional system cost 1/4 of that.
2-VIPER (digital trunking) relies on a certain degree of infrastructure. During a major disaster that infrastructure usually doesn't work. Examples: 9-11 and Katrina. In both conventional systems had to be used and in the case of Katrina Amateur Radio provided the majority of 'traffic' out of many areas for some time.
3-Dept. of Homeland Security issues a guide - NIFOG (national interoperability field operations guide) that list interoperability frequencies for agencies to use in a disaster. All are conventional except for 25 cities that use P25 digital and several of them are simulcasting.
4-VIPER (digital trunking) does not work everywhere. Terrane plays a major role in its availability. Park rangers at Yellowstone use conventional VHF because the other does not work in the terrane at Yellowstone.
VIPER has many good attributes but in a disaster the old saying may become true. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" Having backups for communications means duplicating systems which is costly.
 

drayd48

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jthorpe, interoperability but.....
1-Viper is more expensive. Consider a municipality with 12 fire departments each with 6 officers and 12 EMTs. Each will need a new radio @ approx. $400 each and radios for each truck at approx. $9000 each. Conventional system cost 1/4 of that.
2-VIPER (digital trunking) relies on a certain degree of infrastructure. During a major disaster that infrastructure usually doesn't work. Examples: 9-11 and Katrina. In both conventional systems had to be used and in the case of Katrina Amateur Radio provided the majority of 'traffic' out of many areas for some time.
3-Dept. of Homeland Security issues a guide - NIFOG (national interoperability field operations guide) that list interoperability frequencies for agencies to use in a disaster. All are conventional except for 25 cities that use P25 digital and several of them are simulcasting.
4-VIPER (digital trunking) does not work everywhere. Terrane plays a major role in its availability. Park rangers at Yellowstone use conventional VHF because the other does not work in the terrane at Yellowstone.
VIPER has many good attributes but in a disaster the old saying may become true. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" Having backups for communications means duplicating systems which is costly.
1. That would be the cost of conventional radios. For $9000 you would probably only be able to buy 3 radios capable of trunking
2. Conventional works on that same degree of infrastructure with multiple repeaters being used. When on VIPER, direct channels can be used as well. NC has a list that need to be in every radio along with a national list.
3. You are correct because most of those channels are not used through a repeater. There is no direct trunking. As said before conventional relies on the same degree of repeater services that’s trunking operates off of.
4. While correct, at the end of the day it comes down to what frequency band and infrastructure is being used. Trunking will provide the same coverage as conventional if everything if the infrastructure is the same
 

jthorpe

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jthorpe, interoperability but.....
1-Viper is more expensive. Consider a municipality with 12 fire departments each with 6 officers and 12 EMTs. Each will need a new radio @ approx. $400 each and radios for each truck at approx. $9000 each. Conventional system cost 1/4 of that.
2-VIPER (digital trunking) relies on a certain degree of infrastructure. During a major disaster that infrastructure usually doesn't work. Examples: 9-11 and Katrina. In both conventional systems had to be used and in the case of Katrina Amateur Radio provided the majority of 'traffic' out of many areas for some time.
3-Dept. of Homeland Security issues a guide - NIFOG (national interoperability field operations guide) that list interoperability frequencies for agencies to use in a disaster. All are conventional except for 25 cities that use P25 digital and several of them are simulcasting.
4-VIPER (digital trunking) does not work everywhere. Terrane plays a major role in its availability. Park rangers at Yellowstone use conventional VHF because the other does not work in the terrane at Yellowstone.
VIPER has many good attributes but in a disaster the old saying may become true. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" Having backups for communications means duplicating systems which is costly.

I can't even begin to tell you how inaccurate this is. Lets take florence for instance, VIPER has higher than 99% uptime during that event while many conventional systems failed, only for us to get requests for hundreds of radios for local agencies. We supplied more than 750 radios during that storm for incoming out of state responders and local agencies who went down. I'm very familiar with NIFOG and any radio can be programmed with those. Good luck finding a repeater near you that works remotely well. I could go on but there is no need. It's just too far out there to continue
 

Tobydog

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Modern technology is coming everywhere and no where to hide. Many local governmental units will have to make changes in coming years due to manufacturer updates and tech changes. There are multiple sources for grants to purchase equipment just seek them out. There are some government units changing to be TDMA compliant
 

Tobydog

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Dollars will be tight on all fronts for comms gear but it will be coming whether or not we like doing it. Know one county that has put together an RFP that is high dollar to replace an existing system in use. No system is perfect and performance can be junk in some areas, but it is what it is. Big M has high dollar toys but delivery is slower than a snail
 
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