APRS on (volunteer) fire trucks?

[N0BDW]

Hi folks,

Wondering about the legality (and practicality, if anyone has any experience) of equipping my volunteer fire department's trucks with TinyTrack APRS beacons. It would be my call (or possibly a club call) on all of the trucks, and I'd setup UI-VIEW with custom names (the truck tactical calls) at the firehouse, possibly on a large display in the lobby.
I haven't talked to the FD about this yet, it's just an idea in my head at this point, that I'm now putting on "paper." I wanted to make sure it would actually be legal to do so before bringing it to them as a possibility.

Our radios are on low band, just below 6M, so I don't think we'd have much of a problem with intermod between the fire radios and the APRS beacon (on 2M).

Thanks for any input.
Ben

 

[lbfd09]

I think that the question, "What is this information going to be used for?" should be asked.

If it's to be for you or hour club as a project to see how tracking is beneficial in the event of an emergency: and if used by the amateur community and their interactions with the fire department there would be little issue to deal with.

It becomes a greyer area if it's to track the apparatus in house or by dispatch. An exception might be if it were put in as a part of a demonstration to show the advantage of tracking.

Deployment during an emergency is another story.

 

[N0BDW]

I think that the question, "What is this information going to be used for?" should be asked.

If it's to be for you or hour club as a project to see how tracking is beneficial in the event of an emergency: and if used by the amateur community and their interactions with the fire department there would be little issue to deal with.

It becomes a greyer area if it's to track the apparatus in house or by dispatch. An exception might be if it were put in as a part of a demonstration to show the advantage of tracking.

Deployment during an emergency is another story.

I think intent is often very difficult to prove.
The idea would be to educate the fire department and the community at large on the uses, usefulness, etc, of amateur radio. I think there are likely very few people who are aware we have such capabilities. Before I got into the hobby, I thought amateur radio was much like broadcast radio: DJs pumping out tunes over the airwaves. I think that a lot of people think that is what amateur radio is, or if they have a more accurate concept they think of the old timer sitting in his shack operating CW to far away lands (no offense to anyone that resembles -- it's just not the ONLY picture I want people to have of the hobby).
That said, if a dispatcher were to look at the map to see where apparatus 2C25 is because they have lost radio contact with them, who is going to slap their hand? I want to do everything above board if I'm going to do this, but I'll also refer back to my first sentence in this post.

 

[AK9R]

Some thoughts:

If you set up the APRS trackers so that they beacon tactical calls, you will still need to include the callsign of a responsible person in the comment or status text. An APRS beacon is still a transmission in the amateur radio service, so it still needs to be properly identified.

I think there may be control operator questions. If you can configure the trackers so that a licensed amateur radio operator can shut down the tracker remotely, then I don't see a problem. For this to work, you'd need a receive-capable tracker, such as the Argent Data Tracker2 or Byonics TinyTrak 4.

I think that if your EMA Director or fire department commanders used this data in emergency situations, then it's probably legal. But if the FD dispatchers use this data in their routine dispatch operations, then I think you may be going beyond the scope of amateur radio.

Also, don't forget that you don't need a dedicated APRS client to view APRS data. Web sites, such as www.aprs.fi, are accessible to anyone whether they are licensed or not.

 

[N0BDW]

Some thoughts:

If you set up the APRS trackers so that they beacon tactical calls, you will still need to include the callsign of a responsible person in the comment or status text. An APRS beacon is still a transmission in the amateur radio service, so it still needs to be properly identified.

I think there may be control operator questions. If you can configure the trackers so that a licensed amateur radio operator can shut down the tracker remotely, then I don't see a problem. For this to work, you'd need a receive-capable tracker, such as the Argent Data Tracker2 or Byonics TinyTrak 4.

I think that if your EMA Director or fire department commanders used this data in emergency situations, then it's probably legal. But if the FD dispatchers use this data in their routine dispatch operations, then I think you may be going beyond the scope of amateur radio.

Also, don't forget that you don't need a dedicated APRS client to view APRS data. Web sites, such as Google Maps APRS, are accessible to anyone whether they are licensed or not.

Thanks for the input. I'm aware of the IDing requirements. I would have the trucks beacon as N0BDW-14, for example, but configure UI-VIEW to show them with more familiar names, like 2C25. The actual OTA communication would not be the tactical call. The dedicated client is for the purposes of public demonstration. I wouldn't be providing the information to 911, where fire dispatch is done from, but there would be nothing to stop them from pulling up aprs.fi and taking a look, as is the nature of amateur radio (or, radio in general).

Control op requirements would definitely be an interesting challenge.

 

[zz0468]

I think that would be treading on thin ice if it was to become something other than a short term demonstration of the technology. For permanent long term use, what's to stop you from using the technology on a frequency licensed by the fire department?

 

[rfradioconsult]

Not legal under Part 97, this would be classified as routine comms by a government entity and each transmitter would not be under the direct control of a licensed radio amateur. However, you could license a Public Safety frequency and use APRS technology for the application, except Bob would probably charge a license fee for commercial (non ham) users.

 

[N0BDW]

I think that would be treading on thin ice if it was to become something other than a short term demonstration of the technology.

What FCC or other regulation would actually prevent it?

Not legal under Part 97, this would be classified as routine comms by a government entity and each transmitter would not be under the direct control of a licensed radio amateur. However, you could license a Public Safety frequency and use APRS technology for the application, except Bob would probably charge a license fee for commercial (non ham) users.

It is not a government entity.
It would be under the direct control of a licensed radio amateur in the same way that control ops are in direct control of repeaters.

 

[rfradioconsult]

A volunteer fire department is considered a government entity and as such qualifies under Part 90 of the FCC rules. The OP mentioned they utilize low band for their comms, then they must hold a valid FCC Part 90 license.

Recently the FCC ruled that paid personnel could not operate ham radios as part of their dutues except under specific circumstances.

APRS sounds good on paper for a VFD but doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[N0BDW]

A volunteer fire department is considered a government entity and as such qualifies under Part 90 of the FCC rules. The OP mentioned they utilize low band for their comms, then they must hold a valid FCC Part 90 license.

Recently the FCC ruled that paid personnel could not operate ham radios as part of their dutues except under specific circumstances.

APRS sounds good on paper for a VFD but doesn't pass the sniff test.

There are two entities, the association (to which all of the people belong) and the district (to which all of the equipment belongs). I don't really understand the reasons why, but I'm sure there are many. The district is indeed a government agency, granted. The association is not.

The county has a part 90 license (rather, a handful of them). The fire department itself does not hold any FCC license as far as I'm aware.

These are, as volunteers, not paid personnel.

(I'm the OP, btw)

 

[rfradioconsult]

Good luck on your project.

 

[N0BDW]

Good luck on your project.

I appreciate your input. I haven't made a decision as to if I'll pursue this, I'm just weighing everyone's feedback as it comes in.

 

[reedeb]

These are, as volunteers, not paid personnel.

I can tell you as a retired Volunteer firefighter due to insurance regulations a volunteer is considered a employee of the town or county they are a firefighter.[just a hint MOST volunteer departments DO pay each firefighter a stipend each year]

 

[N0BDW]

I can tell you as a retired Volunteer firefighter due to insurance regulations a volunteer is considered a employee of the town or county they are a firefighter.[just a hint MOST volunteer departments DO pay each firefighter a stipend each year]

Okay, thanks! It sounds like there are a lot of things in the way of this working, so I'll table the idea for now unless anyone has any suggestions of how to make it work.

 

[canav844]

Utilize the knowledge of amateur radio techniques, license a VHF-hi Public safety frequency for data beacons, you can use AX.25 outside of the amateur bands on Part 90 equipment. Using a beacon setup like one you can order everything from argent data on (Puxing 777 is part90 cables and OpenTrackers and GPS) then setup a station that can handle the receive at the Station(s), if possible get an antenna up on the tower at the station for your existing radios, then you should have coverage of most of the area the apparatus will respond. Set that up with UI-VIEW and it can be part of dispatch and in the recreational areas to see who is out and where they're at, and with one radio IDing on the frequency such as the station, the engines can all have the tactical call to reflect their radio call (Ladder 2, Med 7, etc.)

On the amateur bands, it's probably not going to happen and be legal, get it licensed right on a public safety frequency and use public safety radio equipment, and attach accessories then you should be ok. And you're showing them what amateur radio knowledge base can do for them, which may increase their likely hood of buy-in when pitching working with the local RACES and ARES groups if the need arises in a search of a park for a missing person or similar situations.

 

[N0BDW]

Utilize the knowledge of amateur radio techniques, license a VHF-hi Public safety frequency for data beacons, you can use AX.25 outside of the amateur bands on Part 90 equipment. Using a beacon setup like one you can order everything from argent data on (Puxing 777 is part90 cables and OpenTrackers and GPS) then setup a station that can handle the receive at the Station(s), if possible get an antenna up on the tower at the station for your existing radios, then you should have coverage of most of the area the apparatus will respond. Set that up with UI-VIEW and it can be part of dispatch and in the recreational areas to see who is out and where they're at, and with one radio IDing on the frequency such as the station, the engines can all have the tactical call to reflect their radio call (Ladder 2, Med 7, etc.)

On the amateur bands, it's probably not going to happen and be legal, get it licensed right on a public safety frequency and use public safety radio equipment, and attach accessories then you should be ok. And you're showing them what amateur radio knowledge base can do for them, which may increase their likely hood of buy-in when pitching working with the local RACES and ARES groups if the need arises in a search of a park for a missing person or similar situations.

Thanks! I appreciate the feedback. I was hoping to do it on amateur initially so as to not have to ask for a bunch of money and an FCC license up front. Maybe I can demo it using my POV & my license, and then if they are impressed, see about doing a larger deployment under part 90.

 

[902]

The argument of volunteer (as opposed to paid) is a flawed justification, as neither is a profit-making entity. Nonetheless, other means are available to a public safety agency regardless of standing or construct. This is easily solved. Monroe County warehouses a number of frequencies (many of them are licensed with a nation-wide area of operation). With the county's permission, select one, add the correct emission designator to the license, pay Bob Bruninga his royalty for non-amateur use of APRS and set up your system legally (not FCC legally, but free-and-clear legally with no shades of gray or what-if interpretations).

I wish you luck, too. I think it would be a fun project, but I don't think it would be appropriate to use non-royalty APRS or Byonics 2 meter trackers in this application.

 

[rfradioconsult]

Of course your agency could buy a new Motorola TRBO system with the GPS functionality and pretty much do the same exact thing and be 100% legal.

 

[LtDoc]

The original question.
Unless the operators of all those trucks are hams, then the use of 2 meters for APRS would be illegal. But, APRS isn't limited to just 2 meters. It can be implemented on just about any frequency. Just depends if APRS/digital modes are legal on that frequency or not. It's also an "unsupervised" type transmission so keep that in mind.
I can certainly understand wanting to do what you propose, but depending on a lot of factors ($$$) it may not be simple.
Just as a suggestion, instead of a 'TT3' or 'TT4', I think the MT-RTG would be better but more expensive idea. Wire it through the truck's ignition and it'd only be on when the truck was running. And, wouldn't require a separate transmitter.
There are commercial versions of APRS, but you're really talking about expensive, right? Oh well.
Good luck.
- 'Doc

(I worked off of those big red trucks for a lot of years. Knowing exactly where they are can certainly be helpful!)

 

[lbfd09]

The original question.
Unless the operators of all those trucks are hams, then the use of 2 meters for APRS would be illegal. ... ... ...

(I worked off of those big red trucks for a lot of years. Knowing exactly where they are can certainly be helpful!)

I got the solution... Make all your volunteers pass their Tech test while in the academy.

LtDoc - Great points, the only reason I placed this in the grey area is because of those hams that pop APRS in multiple personal vehicles or POVs as we call those in the department..