K5MPH
Member
Thats an good link,thanks.....
Are radios required to be FCC certified?
- Thread starter escapeit
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
That's pretty good, I hadn't seen that before.
Like he said, 99% will ignore it and do what they want. Something about a $30 radio seems to trigger a lack of judgement in some people. Greed? Laziness? Apathy? Ignorance?
Keeping it legal
Yes, I've been told that too. However, the radios used on GMRS repeaters aren't really typed excepted under Part 95, even the repeaters themselves. No it's not legal, but as long as the control op and the group or organization follow procedures set under FCC Part 95. It is legal operate such equipment Certified for Part 90 Commercial Band Now, converting an Amateur Radio Part 97 is strictly forbidden, although there are folks like myself who have done modification to Part 97 equipment
Adam
K3JCP
WQAI363
Yes, I've been told that too. However, the radios used on GMRS repeaters aren't really typed excepted under Part 95, even the repeaters themselves. No it's not legal, but as long as the control op and the group or organization follow procedures set under FCC Part 95. It is legal operate such equipment Certified for Part 90 Commercial Band Now, converting an Amateur Radio Part 97 is strictly forbidden, although there are folks like myself who have done modification to Part 97 equipment
Adam
K3JCP
WQAI363
I believe there is an exemption (blanket grant) that any radio certified for Part 90 may be used on GMRS.
As was eluded to, the presence of the FCC logo means nothing without an ID number. That number may indicate Part 15 TA (RX only), Part 90 (TX/RX), or some other part. What it has TA for will tell you where it can be used and how.
As was eluded to, the presence of the FCC logo means nothing without an ID number. That number may indicate Part 15 TA (RX only), Part 90 (TX/RX), or some other part. What it has TA for will tell you where it can be used and how.
nd5y
Member
I don't know where you heard that but it's total BS. All GMRS radios must be Part 95 certified. Some are certified for Part both 90 and 95 and sometimes other services.
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Then why are there so many MASTR-II repeaters and the like used on GMRS? They are not Part 95 certified. There are also many Motorola mobiles that are used there that are not Part 95 certified. In fact, Kenwood is one of the few manufacturers who have applied for dual TA (and also note that this is the exact same dual-TA issue AnytoneTech's TERMN-8R was roasted for and lost TA on Part 95).
But, all that aside, here is the applicable rule from the FCC:
§ 95.129 Station equipment.
Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS. Write to any FCC Field Office to find out if a particular transmitter has been certificated for the GMRS. All station equipment in a GMRS system must comply with the technical rules in part 95.
(The emphasis is mine).
So... WHICH Part 95 rule exceeds Part 90 technical standards and makes Part 90 equipment illegal on GMRS?
At the best, it's vague and ambiguous, and any ambiguity falls in favor of the defendant, so there is your "get out of jail free" card.
Here is a quote from some GMRS folks from 18 months ago:
"Commission field inspectors usually have no issue with Part 90 repeaters and mobiles being used in Part 95 service - the tech standards for frequency stability and harmonic suppression, etc., are nearly identical. Since there is no 'official' Commission position on this matter (yet), it would take a dedicated petition to the Commission to have an official ruling on this matter and that has not been undertaken by any individual or corporation to our knowledge. If anyone here has documentation concerning any Part 90 use of equipment in Part 95 service petitions being filed with the Commission, please furnish that documentation in this thread."
So, Mr. ND5Y, please cite your evidence that they have prosecuted users of Part 90 equipment, or a ruling that they do prohibit Part 90 equipment on GMRS. Otherwise, mine is not the BS in this thread. If they were CLEARLY illegal, the FCC would cite the operators.
But, all that aside, here is the applicable rule from the FCC:
§ 95.129 Station equipment.
Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS. Write to any FCC Field Office to find out if a particular transmitter has been certificated for the GMRS. All station equipment in a GMRS system must comply with the technical rules in part 95.
(The emphasis is mine).
So... WHICH Part 95 rule exceeds Part 90 technical standards and makes Part 90 equipment illegal on GMRS?
At the best, it's vague and ambiguous, and any ambiguity falls in favor of the defendant, so there is your "get out of jail free" card.
Here is a quote from some GMRS folks from 18 months ago:
"Commission field inspectors usually have no issue with Part 90 repeaters and mobiles being used in Part 95 service - the tech standards for frequency stability and harmonic suppression, etc., are nearly identical. Since there is no 'official' Commission position on this matter (yet), it would take a dedicated petition to the Commission to have an official ruling on this matter and that has not been undertaken by any individual or corporation to our knowledge. If anyone here has documentation concerning any Part 90 use of equipment in Part 95 service petitions being filed with the Commission, please furnish that documentation in this thread."
So, Mr. ND5Y, please cite your evidence that they have prosecuted users of Part 90 equipment, or a ruling that they do prohibit Part 90 equipment on GMRS. Otherwise, mine is not the BS in this thread. If they were CLEARLY illegal, the FCC would cite the operators.
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nd5y
Member
§95.655 Frequency capability.
(a) No transmitter will be certificated for use in the CB service if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in §95.625, and no transmitter will be certificated for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in §95.621, unless such transmitter is also certificated for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. (Transmitters with frequency capability for the Amateur Radio Services and Military Affiliate Radio System will not be certificated.)
(b) All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each CB transmitter and in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure.
(a) No transmitter will be certificated for use in the CB service if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in §95.625, and no transmitter will be certificated for use in the GMRS if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in §95.621, unless such transmitter is also certificated for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required. (Transmitters with frequency capability for the Amateur Radio Services and Military Affiliate Radio System will not be certificated.)
(b) All frequency determining circuitry (including crystals) and programming controls in each CB transmitter and in each GMRS transmitter must be internal to the transmitter and must not be accessible from the exterior of the transmitter operating panel or from the exterior of the transmitter enclosure.
Nice quote - proves nothing with respect to the point in contention since the part "unless such transmitter is also certificated for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required" applies for Part 90 transmitters.
The only thing that adds is that "Transmitters with frequency capability for the Amateur Radio Services and Military Affiliate Radio System will not be certificated" which Kenwood has clearly violated (or gotten around) since their equipment covers the ham bands as well as the commercial bands.
So, the issue gets more vague. Want to try again or is the hole deep enough already?
The only thing that adds is that "Transmitters with frequency capability for the Amateur Radio Services and Military Affiliate Radio System will not be certificated" which Kenwood has clearly violated (or gotten around) since their equipment covers the ham bands as well as the commercial bands.
So, the issue gets more vague. Want to try again or is the hole deep enough already?
nd5y
Member
"Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS."
Part 90 has nothing to do GMRS.
I don't know why people can't understand that.
Part 90 has nothing to do GMRS.
I don't know why people can't understand that.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
I agree, the FCC has hosed the rules up pretty bad and it isn't easy for people to understand.
However, 95.129 does say that "must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS. "
Since it is possible to do a search on radios certified under 95A, it seems to be pretty clear that they are saying the radios must be certified under 95A. At this point there are 1112 radio models that have Part 95A certification, so it's not impossible to get one that is covered by this rule.
Sure, I understand that most Part 90 radios meet the specifications for Part 95A, but I'd feel a whole lot better if the FCC put that in writing.
§95.129 Station equipment.
Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS. Transmitters that have been certified for use in the GMRS may be found on the FCC Web site at https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm. All station equipment in a GMRS system must comply with the technical rules in part 95.
However, 95.129 does say that "must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS. "
Since it is possible to do a search on radios certified under 95A, it seems to be pretty clear that they are saying the radios must be certified under 95A. At this point there are 1112 radio models that have Part 95A certification, so it's not impossible to get one that is covered by this rule.
Sure, I understand that most Part 90 radios meet the specifications for Part 95A, but I'd feel a whole lot better if the FCC put that in writing.
§95.129 Station equipment.
Every station in a GMRS system must use transmitters the FCC has certificated for use in the GMRS. Transmitters that have been certified for use in the GMRS may be found on the FCC Web site at https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm. All station equipment in a GMRS system must comply with the technical rules in part 95.
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Using the FCC search tool on radios that have Part 95A certification, it isn't only Kenwood that has done this. Many manufacturers have radios that a certified in multiple services, including Part 22, Part 74, Part 80, Part 90, Part 95..... Motorola, Kenwood, Icom, Yeasu, Midland etc. etc. etc.
My understanding is that Part 90 equipment is not, to the letter, legal for GMRS. However, this sentence above may make those waters murkier. AFAIK, old business licenses are grandfathered. As such, the Part 90 equipment they used would fit the definition of "such transmitter is also certificated for use in another radio service for which the frequency is authorized and for which certification is also required." IMHO, that muddies the water a bit.
I agree. But, I don't think that the powers that be in the FCC believe it is in the commission's best interest to clarify too much. The BATFE has gotten itself into some right messes that way. As long as they can get many to comply by ramrodding a few fines through, the FCC has no motivation to clarify in many situations.
nd5y
Member
...unless such transmitter is ALSO certificated for use in another radio service...
It's not murky at all. Radios can be certified for multiple services. As long as the certification includes part 95A it is legal to use them on GMRS.
Yep. Didn't catch the "also" on a quick read.
Good grief! Have you noticed how old that database is?
"Last Reviewed/Updated on 12/10/2010"
On the other hand, I found an interesting chart there that lists all of the "Parts" that transmitters certified under the class "TNB" (Licensed Non-Broadcast Station Transmitter" are included as approved when the Part 90 is issued.
See: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/EquipmentRulesList.cfm
Among the many "Parts" that are included is Part 95A... :wink:
That's the page itself, not the database.
I suppose if you're going to go by the LETTER of the law, your GMRS radio must also be crystal controlled. I have not researched that, but found that others have made that point in various forums that one of the GMRS rules still require that for operation on GMRS.
So, if your radio is synthesized, TA or not for Part 95, it's not legal. (again - going by the LETTER of the law)
I too would prefer that the FCC clarify the matter or put things in clear language, but perhaps there is a reason they are not doing that.
Regardless, when you have engineers who let people get away with Part 90 equipment, that establishes a precedent (interpretation) which holds as much water as the written rules - if not more.
Remember - the reason for the rules are to ensure clean equipment, and as I pointed out (and as nobody has dis-proven yet), Part 90 meets or exceeds all Part 95a technical standards. Therefore the spirit is definitely met, and the letter is a gray area.
So, if your radio is synthesized, TA or not for Part 95, it's not legal. (again - going by the LETTER of the law)
I too would prefer that the FCC clarify the matter or put things in clear language, but perhaps there is a reason they are not doing that.
Regardless, when you have engineers who let people get away with Part 90 equipment, that establishes a precedent (interpretation) which holds as much water as the written rules - if not more.
Remember - the reason for the rules are to ensure clean equipment, and as I pointed out (and as nobody has dis-proven yet), Part 90 meets or exceeds all Part 95a technical standards. Therefore the spirit is definitely met, and the letter is a gray area.
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