Caltrans and District 3

[GBF]

857.7625 FM in Caltrans District 3

Hi HotdjDave, and WayneH, and all,

While this is not perfectly complete... I hope it is still useful and interesting:

Some years ago, while searching for "new to me" CALTRANS freqs in District 3, I was trying out as many Caltrans freqs as I could, and got a hit on this one, found the missing link in my I-80 East corridor file, and have monitored it since. I could find no listing/explanation for this freq being in District 3, until today when I searched the RR>DB>CA for "857.7625". See results: http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR&action=isf&stid=6&freq=857.7625

On LINE 4, I found:

857.76250 812.76250 North Statewide Operations Department of Transportation (CALTRANS) CA

This, I now believe, is how "Nevada City", AKA: "Nevada City Maintenance", can be heard on 857.7625. The why, I suspect, is that they had trouble sharing channels(14 thru 17) on I-80 (+ Hwy 49), with "Auburn", "Whitmore" and "Kingvale" (see District 3, lines 4,5,6 and 7, in this link: http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR&aid=1234). (And maybe some Marysville and Truckee channels as well.) Further more, there is no Base/Dispatch/Maintenance Yard called Baxter, only a HAR (Highway Advisory Radio),. broadcast to your AM radio (car/near by). Baxter should be removed, Kingvale added and this panel needs updating. Have been told, some years ago, by a CALTRANS supervisor, there are 33 channels, up one from 32. Information taken from another website (that will not be copied here)(it too, BTW, is incorrect as to Nevada City), shows the first 32 look like 8xx.7375 or 8xx.9875MHz, and does not show a 33rd, which I believe is this assignment for "Nevada City Maintenance - 857.7625." I do not find this listed as such anywhere, have been listening for years, and would like to submit it on those grounds.

In that reference (link above) for District 3, line 5 would be more accurate, even if incomplete:

860.7375? 81x.xx75? BMR 136.5 PL ? 15 I-80 Auburn-Whitmore FM

where: freq= probably 860.7375, else 859.7375, (only 7 freqs on 32 channels);
input= probably 813.7375, (others to check: 813.9875, 814.7375, 814.9875);
tone= probably 136.5PL, (seven to choose from).

While this becomes a new entry:
857.7625 8xx.xxx5? BMR 136.5 PL ? ch? Hwys 20,49,174 Nevada City FM

Do know for certain: Frequency= 857.7625, FM, BM;
Areas worked= portions of St. Hwys. 20,49,174;
Base= "Nevada City Maintenance", AKA: "Nevada City";
Mobiles=73-1x, 73-2x Supervisors, 73-Sx Sanders, 73-Kx Plows, etc;
Channel= NOT 15!

Do not know for certain: input= 812.7625? not close enough yet;
repeater= assumed, due to terrain:
tone= no equipment to check with;
ch= 30 was heard once by a supervisor calling another.

I'm willing to work with someone/anyone to update District 3. I know a couple of CT guys, MAYBE can get some verification from them...Maybe I/someone can get written permission from other site to use their info here...And maybe someone else has something to add?

Thanks!
edit= fixed link + typo

 

[SCPD]

GBF, you have done quite a bit of thinking and using the RR database in making your conclusion that 857.7625 is being used in District 3. I don't completely follow your logic, but I think you said you have heard this frequency being used on the I-80 corridor. If so it should be added to the RR database because of that, not because of how it shows up in the existing database. To corroborate what you have monitored the FCC license database should be used.

What was your location when you picked up traffic on this frequency and how often have you heard traffic? Did the traffic pertain to the I-80 corridor?

Last spring I had the chance to look over a Caltrans District 9 handheld that had a program of conventional frequencies for Districts 3-12 in it. I had the radio for a couple of weeks as I am a supervisor on a Caltrans contract maintaining a rest area and the phones were down for a couple of months in the rest area. Caltrans gave me a handheld to use while the phones were out of order. During that time I took the radio and used a frequency/tone counter to determine how it was programmed.

Each district was an individual bank and the method used for alphanumeric labeling for each bank tended to vary. In some districts the name of the repeater was used, while in other districts each channel was labeled as to where it should be used. For example, in District 9 there is a channel labeled "June Lake" and nearby there is an electronic site called "June Mountain." However, the repeater location is Queen Bee Hill located some 30 miles north of the June Lake area. I have not submitted the information yet, as I need to go through the program and match the frequency with the repeater location using FCC license information. Once that is done the information I have will be useful for the RR database. This process will take some time as it requires doing a search of all licenses for Caltrans on each frequency they use to find out what locations the repeaters are licensed for and then match that up with the geographic locations with the repeater location.

When that is completed I believe I will some of the best information we have in figuring out Caltrans statewide. It will be better than the brief looks I have gotten at the radios in Caltrans equipment and the conversations I've had with some of their employees, although both are valuable for additional cross checking. The programs might be out of date for all but District 9, where the radio is used, as updating the programs out of District may not be a major priority.

The listings for District 3 in the RR database match what I found on the handheld program I looked at. There are additional channels not shown on the RR database, however, I'm not going to submit that info until I have a chance to compare the radio's program with the FCC license information. I thought that I would have the chance to complete this work by now, but other things in life, namely work and taking care of an elderly parent have taken more time than I planned.

Now GBF, back to your conclusion. I don't think the conclusion you made is solid enough until FCC license information is cross checked first. The frequency of 857.7625 is labeled as Caltrans frequency "O" on the program I have, but it does not show up in the D3 bank, rather it shows up in the statewide program where each frequency is programmed with each of 6 tone and labeled only by letters. As a result your monitoring of the frequency and careful listening of the context and content of the traffic means more than your work with the RR database. If FCC data could always be relied on it would be fairly straight forward to figure out radio systems, however, we all know that the data and use in the field can be very different or at least appear so. That presents the challenge and fun of our hobby as we have to not only research agencies and their FCC licenses but we have to carefully listen and search the bands to come up with our information.

By the way Caltrans uses the same set of tones and labels them the same as CDF and the federal natural resource agencies such as the BLM and the Forest Service do, in a cooperative effort to standardize CTCSS tones in California. Although that tone plan now has 16 tones, I have not seen any information that Caltrans uses more than 6 of them.

I will try to do my work with the program I have sometime this winter. I'm sure we can use your help and that of others who are monitoring Caltrans in their areas to build on the existing RR database for this agency after I present my information. Not enough people take the interest in Caltrans for us to figure their radio system out. This in spite of this being some of the most valuable programming information one can have for mobile monitoring.

EDIT The input frequencies are not that important in a 800/900 MHz system as they can only be monitored for a very short distance, however they are always 45 MHz lower than the output.

 

[GBF]

GBF, you have done quite a bit of thinking and using the RR database in making your conclusion that 857.7625 is being used in District 3.

Conclusion not from DB, but from copying traffic, more than enough to know what I'm hearing and more than one radio display.

I don't completely follow your logic, but I think you said you have heard this frequency being used on the I-80 corridor.

My statements were not clear, channel 15 was being used on Hwy 20, as well as I-80.

If so it should be added to the RR database because of that, not because of how it shows up in the existing database. To corroborate what you have monitored the FCC license database should be used.

It should be added because it's on the air and not listed on ANYONES DB as "Nevada City Maintenance". Even RR>DB has N/A in license field???

What was your location when you picked up traffic on this frequency and how often have you heard traffic? Did the traffic pertain to the I-80 corridor?

Hear traffic all the time...Hwy 20 is incident to I-80 @ "20-80 junction".

Last spring I had the chance to look over a Caltrans District 9 handheld that had a program of conventional frequencies for Districts 3-12 in it. I had the radio for a couple of weeks as I am a supervisor on a Caltrans contract maintaining a rest area and the phones were down for a couple of months in the rest area. Caltrans gave me a handheld to use while the phones were out of order. During that time I took the radio and used a frequency/tone counter to determine how it was programmed.

Awesome! Wish I could do that!

Now GBF, back to your conclusion. I don't think the conclusion you made is solid enough until FCC license information is cross checked first. The frequency of 857.7625 is labeled as Caltrans frequency "O" on the program I have, but it does not show up in the D3 bank,...

That's my point, it's "new" to District 3 (1 or 2 yrs old). I think, that it is used as a supplement in areas with conflicts with existing channels, hence the description "North" + "Statewide" in search results link. See also in that link where it is used on Hwy 88.

...rather it shows up in the statewide program where each frequency is programmed with each of 6 tone and labeled only by letters.

My unconfirmed info is: (1)110.9, (2)123.0. (3)131.8, (4)136.5, (5)145.2, (6)146.2, (7)156.7.

As a result your monitoring of the frequency and careful listening of the context and content of the traffic means more than your work with the RR database.

Thank you.

If FCC data could always be relied on it would be fairly straight forward to figure out radio systems, however, we all know that the data and use in the field can be very different or at least appear so. That presents the challenge and fun of our hobby as we have to not only research agencies and their FCC licenses but we have to carefully listen and search the bands to come up with our information.

Please explain more about why the FCC license stuff is so important.

By the way Caltrans uses the same set of tones and labels them the same as CDF and the federal natural resource agencies such as the BLM and the Forest Service do, in a cooperative effort to standardize CTCSS tones in California. Although that tone plan now has 16 tones, I have not seen any information that Caltrans uses more than 6 of them.

see: this. Scroll down to D3.

I will try to do my work with the program I have sometime this winter. I'm sure we can use your help and that of others who are monitoring Caltrans in their areas to build on the existing RR database for this agency after I present my information. Not enough people take the interest in Caltrans for us to figure their radio system out. This in spite of this being some of the most valuable programming information one can have for mobile monitoring.

Ditto. Let's roll!!!

EDIT The input frequencies are not that important in a 800/900 MHz system as they can only be monitored for a very short distance, however they are always 45 MHz lower than the output.

That's good to know! (But the most prevalent input near here is 813, and I hardly ever get much on 858?,--- I will have to add more input frqs on the bank---and see.) I do pick up inputs from time to time.

Tell me what else I should do to have this (857.7625-Nevada City Maintenance") added? I cannot detect tones.

hotdjdave, what say you?

birkenvogt, any help from your side?

 

[WayneH]

I've split this off from the Sticky as I see the direction it's going in.

Exsmokey, I hope you get the time to organize your data. You mentioned you had information on Caltrans for every district several months ago but had to cross-reference site information before you could submit. I've still yet to see it. No teasing please! Send it in and we'll get it worked out. It doesn't have to be all-inclusive at first.

-Wayne

 

[GBF]

I've split this off from the Sticky as I see the direction it's going in

Wayne, no qualms with your discretion, but please explain just for my own learning. And I do think the freq,etc is worth adding, please suggest what more I should do. Thanks-GBF

 

[Norman]

GBF et all, I sent in a bunch of 800 freqs for the I80 and Hwy 50 corridors a couple of years ago based on my own monitoring. I "thought" I had included 857.7625, guess not. I can hear most of these freqs from my location in El Dorado county. Here is what I know about 857.7625: it is called Ch 30, ref'd to as Nevada City, used by 7310 and 7311 etc units, and has a PL of 110.9 Used a lot locally in the Hwy 20 area, and at the time I heard it originally, Kingvale did not have that channel. Hope this helps, Norm.

 

[GBF]

Norman,
I was pretty sure I heard CH 30, didn't seem to match any lists I found. Thanks for providing Tone. And Kingvale does TX to 73units on this freq. I had originally posted this in hotdjdaves sticky, http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41576, "for review and discussion", hoping it would get tended to. There's no shortage of CT info for Dist.3, (except on RRs DB) and this is one item that I could not find listed anywhere, even tho, as I said before, I have been monitoring it (and others) for some time now. It is also used on Hwys 49+174. Thank you for your input! -GBF

 

[WayneH]

Wayne, no qualms with your discretion, but please explain just for my own learning. And I do think the freq,etc is worth adding, please suggest what more I should do. Thanks-GBF

Submit it to the database. We prefer it that way. Where you posted is just to encourage others to submit data. It's not necessarily a repository for data to be submitted.

Find the appropriate page where you feel your data would go and click the "Submit" tab directly above the Agency's name. Thanks.

-Wayne

 

[GBF]

Thank you Wayne,
I will re-read the guidelines and attempt to make a proper submission. Is it okay to include the tone that Norman provided? I have no equipment to verify it.

 

[WayneH]

Thank you Wayne,
I will re-read the guidelines and attempt to make a proper submission. Is it okay to include the tone that Norman provided? I have no equipment to verify it.

That's fine.

Sometimes I don't have enough time to go through posts and sift out or translate data for the database, so it's easier to get the skinny version in a submission. Thanks.

-Wayne

 

[SCPD]

My unconfirmed info is: (1)110.9, (2)123.0. (3)131.8, (4)136.5, (5)145.2, (6)146.2, (7)156.7.

145.2 is not a valid tone. It is not on any of the industry or ham radio tone lists, both for the U.S. or internationally. FON has a typo on their list. On the California interagency tone plan 146.2 is tone 5 and 156.7 is tone 6.

Please explain more about why the FCC license stuff is so important.

FCC data is important as most agencies work hard to keep their actual use and their FCC licenses to agree. Also, in order to get an FCC license they must go through a specified frequency coordination organization. For this portion of California they do their frequency coordination with the Northern California chapter of APCO (Association of Public Safety Communications Officers). If they don't have an FCC license, among other problems Caltrans or any other agency can run into, someone else can apply for coordination and receive an FCC license for use of the frequency. Illegal use of frequencies gives the user no status when it comes to interference complaints or priority for licensing the frequency. That is why a search of FCC data is needed along with everything else we do in order to determine how a radio system is set up. It isn't 100% accurate and does not list tones. The names of the locations are often the nearest town or city rather than the commonly used or official topographic feature name for the repeater or electronic site location. That is why I locate the lat/long of each location shown on the FCC license on statewide USGS topo map software. In spite of some of these limitations the FCC license information is the least likely to have errors in it and we need to cross check our information from as many sources as we can muster. The Internet and many publications are chock full or some very basic errors. Once one person puts out a list, others begin to use those to put their lists out and the errors soon occupy directories and websites every time you come across one.

Exsmokey, I hope you get the time to organize your data. You mentioned you had information on Caltrans for every district several months ago but had to cross-reference site information before you could submit. I've still yet to see it. No teasing please! Send it in and we'll get it worked out. It doesn't have to be all-inclusive at first.

Wayne, I've not been trying to present a tease. I work a minimum 10 hour day, 8 months of the year. I have an 85 year old mother who fell and broke her hip this last year and it is a 325 mile drive one-way to her house. I've been taking care of house and go to the doctor with her. She broke it just a few days after I posted . Many of my posts are made when I can find a wireless connection while waiting in medical facilities here and there and when I have to take over the in-home care. Also I live in snow country and have been trying to take advantage of all the time we have had with good weather this fall and early winter and waiting for the unsettled weather period before spending a lot of time at my desk. It is the way we schedule our lives in a place where winter lasts 7-8 months, with an average 17 feet of snow per year at my house.

The process I use to reconcile different sources of information is what I used to figure out the State Park radio system for posting to a northern California scanner frequency website that has been used as a source for at least one widely sold frequency directory. I would like to make sure we cut down on the errors that plague other website frequency lists by doing some thorough work. This forum will be a great place to have the work field checked as it is difficult for me or anyone to drive around this big state of ours to do that.

I don't think I want to post what I have until I have a chance to reconcile much of it with FCC data, otherwise the amount of debate that will be created will fill many pages. I would like to see the comments on what I have be more focused and effective. Now that I'm in my winter layoff period and Christmas is behind me I should make some progress on my hobby tasks. At least, until another one of lives turds falls out of the sky and hits me!

 

[SCPD]

I'm reviving this thread as I have finally had the chance to complete my research on Caltrans statewide. It was a lengthy process, involving about 50-60 hours of work, so it is about as comprehensive of a job as has been done for Caltrans in quite some time. I used four sources of information for this research.

First, I have the radio program I mentioned above, taken from a Caltrans District 9 handheld in spring 2006. It was programmed for Districts 3-12 with the exception of the trunked systems in Districts 4, 7, 8, 11, and 12. I was able to confirm each channel along with the PL tone for each. In many of the districts the display indicated the area a channel should be used in, not the location of the repeater. The date of this program is unknown as a handheld examined in spring 2006 may have been up to date months or years before that.

Second, I have a copy of a 1994 statewide Caltrans radio system plan. That might seem pretty old, and it is, however, it seemed to be fairly current in Districts 3-12 for the conventional system. It listed trunking frequencies, but did not list talkgroups. Districts 1, 2, and 5 were only estimated in this plan and this is where the data was only marginally helpful.

Third, I did a county by county search of all FCC licenses issued to the state of California for the frequency range of 856.7375 to 868.0375 MHz, and a search of licenses for each known Caltrans frequency on a statewide frequency search. The data from this method revealed that a lot of information for Caltrans is outdated as many licenses were canceled, which is a fairly good way to verify that a frequency use has ended as it takes positive action to cancel a license. Expired licenses don't always mean the use has ended as the failure to renew one can be a mistake, an oversight. I used topo map software to locate each repeater using the lat and long information listed on the license. The problem with license data is that it does not always reflect the current use. It can show planned repeater locations and if the FCC hasn't followed up on the requirement for the licensee to submit statements of actual build out, it can show repeaters that are not actually being used. In other cases the repeater might be in place, but reprogramming of district radios has not occurred yet resulting in the repeater not being monitored yet.

Fourth, I looked at Kelty's latest guide on California State Agencies. In most cases this guide showed some good current information and quite a bit of information that is not current. I believe Kelty must have had the 1994 Caltrans radio system plan in hand when he wrote his guide. What Kelty's guide provided, for the most part, were a few missing CTCSS tones for 1-3 repeaters per district. His information pretty much agreed with what I developed using the first three methods.

I'm going to make a fairly hefty database submission based on the four sources I've outline above. I plan to do so not in this thread, but in the database submission thread for California. I will submit one district at a time, say one per day or one every 2-3 days, until all 12 districts are covered. I will post my submissions in the CA database thread at the same time. Everyone will have the chance to comment on the submissions. When making the submissions, I will show both the repeater location and the Caltrans handheld radio channel display.

The Radio Reference database is lacking information for almost every district, with the exception of District 3 (Marysville). This district's RR database listing is very close to what I was able to get using the four methods I outlined above.

With that, I will move over to the California database submission forum and begin the submission process I've outlined.