Sentinel: Capacity Max LCN Overlimit

[Muxlow]

Curious how to enter the correct LCN for cap max systems in the sentinal software for a 536 and sds200

DSD+ shows channel 7006 as voice 7007 as control and when i enter that into the sentinal its saying LCN over limit (LCN=0-4094)
Same goes for a couple other sites its over the limit.
Curious what do i have to do for that to work? Couple sites seem to fall under the 0-4094 LCN so they are ok but most are beyond 4094

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

DSD+ shows channel 7006 as voice 7007 as control and when i enter that into the sentinal its saying LCN over limit (LCN=0-4094)

These are LSNs (or Ch IDs, one per timeslot). Use either scanner's LCN finder to determine correct LCN(s) for each frequency if not already ID'ed in the RRDB

 

[Muxlow]

LCN 7006 CHid 14013/14014
LCN 7007 CHid 14015/14016

Sentinal wont allow me to enter either of these LCN or channel ID
Scanners doing the LCN finder but thats for a different site iv got a good signal on but ill compare what it finds once its done its thing

But that site is
LCN 609 CHid 1219/1220
LCN 607 CHid 1215/1216

These will enter into the scanner since they are in range but the other 6 out of 10 sites will not

 

[dmfalk]

Out of curiosity, could it be that Sentinel prefers hex values, rather than decimal values? 🤔 An interesting quandary......

 

[Muxlow]

Tried hex and did not like that one bit. Gave the same error

 

[dmfalk]

For LCN, try the last three digits (006 instead of 7006).

When in doubt, I generally monitor a site with such settings set to search, and take note of what the scanner reveals.

 

[Muxlow]

Got some odd results
RRDB -----------------------------LCN Finder
LCN 207 ChID 415 scanner says is LCN 103
LCN 213 ChID 427 scanner says is LCN 11

LCN 607 ChID 1215 scanner says is LCN 3

LCN 7007 ChID 14015 scanner says is LCN 792

 

[mtindor]

Curious how to enter the correct LCN for cap max systems in the sentinal software for a 536 and sds200

DSD+ shows channel 7006 as voice 7007 as control and when i enter that into the sentinal its saying LCN over limit (LCN=0-4094)
Same goes for a couple other sites its over the limit.
Curious what do i have to do for that to work? Couple sites seem to fall under the 0-4094 LCN so they are ok but most are beyond 4094

DSDPlus shows LSNs, not LCNs. So you must convert the DSDPlus LSNs to LCNs first.

LSN = Logical Slot Number ; there are two per frequency (DMR is two-timeslots)

So there will always be an odd/even DSDPlus LSN pair associated with each frequency, such as 7001/7002, 7003/7004, 7005/7006, 7007/7008.

For TIII systems:

Uniden LCN = (high DSDPlus LSN / 2) - 1
ex = (2998 / 2) - 1 = 1499 -1 = 1498

Uniden LCN = (high DSDPlus LSN / 2) - 1
ex = (7006 / 2) - 1 , which equals 3503 - 1, which equals 3502

So for TIII systems:

LSNs 7005/7006 = LCN 3502 and are associated with one frequency
LSNs 7007/7008 = LCN 3503 and are associated with a different frequenc

7006 and 7007 would be two different frequencies, because 7005/7006 is one freq and 7007/7008 is another freq.

 

[Muxlow]

Alrighty

So that gives me

420.8125 7006 / 2 = 3503 -1=3502 for 7006 Slot 2
420.8125 7005 / 2 = 3502 -1=3501 for 7005 Slot 1
420.7125 7007 / 2 = 3503 -1=3502 for 7007 Slot 1 Control Channel


Little confused as 7007 and 7006 both come out the same (Unless 7006 is slot 2 of 420.7125 and 7005 is 420.8125 slot 1.. have to double check this once there is activity)

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

 

[mtindor]

Alrighty

So that gives me

420.8125 7006 / 2 = 3503 -1=3502 for 7006 Slot 2
420.8125 7005 / 2 = 3502 -1=3501 for 7005 Slot 1
420.7125 7007 / 2 = 3503 -1=3502 for 7007 Slot 1 Control Channel


Little confused as 7007 and 7006 both come out the same (Unless 7006 is slot 2 of 420.7125 and 7005 is 420.8125 slot 1.. have to double check this once there is activity)


And for a couple other sites the math dont go low enough for the LSN

LCN 6607 ChID 13215+13216 comes out to 6607 and thats beyond what the scanner will allow
LCN 6407 ChID 12815+12816 comes out to 6406
LCN 7007 ChID 14015+14016 comes out to 7007


This is the system im trying to get going on the scanner and seems sites 32 33 34 35 36 are not allowing me to enter the info

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

You’ve got it wrong, but I’m in bed and I can’t help you right now. If somebody doesn’t straighten things out for you by morning, I’ll try and explain. Remember I said there are LSN pears and they are odd even. 7005 and 7006. 7007 and 7008 is another frequency. 7009 7010 is another frequency.

The way you have it listed you’ve got one frequency on 7005 on 7006 and one on 7007.

You’re really playing guessing games right now because I doubt that you’re seeing 7005, 7006, 7007 in the channel activity window in DST plus

Anyway, I’ll check back in the morning. Post some screenshots of your DSD plus on a T3 site control channel as well as a screenshot of the channel activity window after there has been some voice activity.

Good night

 

[mtindor]

Alrighty

So that gives me

420.8125 7006 / 2 = 3503 -1=3502 for 7006 Slot 2
420.8125 7005 / 2 = 3502 -1=3501 for 7005 Slot 1
420.7125 7007 / 2 = 3503 -1=3502 for 7007 Slot 1 Control Channel


Little confused as 7007 and 7006 both come out the same (Unless 7006 is slot 2 of 420.7125 and 7005 is 420.8125 slot 1.. have to double check this once there is activity)

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

LSNs are Logical Slot Numbers. They are paired. And they are associated with 1 LCN and 1 freq.

Here is an example of a 2-frequency TIII site in my area:

LCN      LSN      FREQ
1271     2543     460.900
1271     2544     460.900
1498     2997     463.7375
1498     2998     463.7375

The matching LSN pairs are always odd/even -- never even/odd. What I mean by that is 7006/7007 LSN is not a proper pairing. 7005/7006 is. 7007/7008 is. 7009/7010 is.

You'll see above the DSDPlus reported LSNs for the two freqs are 2543/2544 and 2997/2998.

And if you take the EVEN LSN (2544 or 2998) and divide it by 2 and then subtract one you get:

(2544/2) - 1
1272 - 1
1271 LCN = 2543/2544 LSN = 460.900

(2998/2) - 1
1499 -1
1498 LCN = 2997/2998 LSN = 463.7375

 

[Muxlow]

That all works for half of the sites for the system im monitoring

6 sites their LSN/LCN are too high

Examples
LCN 6407 - LSN 12815/12816
LCN 6807 - LSN 13615/13616
LCN 7007 - LSN 14015/14016
LCN 7006 - LSN 14013/14014
LCN 7205 - LSN 14411/14412

 

[mtindor]

That all works for half of the sites for the system im monitoring

6 sites their LSN/LCN are too high

Examples
LCN 6407 - LSN 12815/12816
LCN 6807 - LSN 13615/13616
LCN 7007 - LSN 14015/14016
LCN 7006 - LSN 14013/14014
LCN 7205 - LSN 14411/14412

Why don't you paste your DSDPlus Channel Activity window ? Is the system you are monitoring in the DB? If so can you link to it? Is it a DFA system?

 

[Muxlow]

Linked it a few posts ago Iv submitted all the data for this system so far.
Motorola system

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

Sites 32 and beyond are the issues

 

[mtindor]

Linked it a few posts ago Iv submitted all the data for this system so far.
Motorola system

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

Sites 32 and beyond are the issues

Sounds like DFA to me. When you monitored those sites in DSDPlus, did the LSNs and frequencies autopopulate in the Channel Activity Window? Or did you have to figure out all of the LSNs and the frequencies they were associated with?

If the former, those are DFA (Direct Frequency Access) sites.

For instance, if you have a pristine DSDPlus configuration with none of those sites configured in DSDPlus.Networks, DSDPlus.sites and DSDPlus.frequencies, if you were to park DSDPlus on the control channel would it automatically show the LSN <--> frequency pairings? If so, those are DFA sites. And DFA sites should NOT have their LCN information documented in the RRDB sites.

Basically, with DFA sites, the tx/rx frequencies and such are all sent over the control channel (just like you see for P25 systems).

 

[mtindor]

Linked it a few posts ago Iv submitted all the data for this system so far.
Motorola system

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Turbo Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

Sites 32 and beyond are the issues

Really though, why are not pasting a screenshot of your Channel Activity window? Please do that when monitoring one of those sites.

Mike

 

[Muxlow]

Really though, why are not pasting a screenshot of your Channel Activity window? Please do that when monitoring one of those sites.

Mike

Honestly...because the SAME info is listed in the DB already?

Frequencies did not auto populate. I had to do the leg work to figure out what they were for what site and LCN
Only thing that auto populated is the LSN "Ch" on DSD+

Didnt know DFA was a thing. Guess if i see DMR freqs auto populate thats a good indication then. Why are they not to be added to the DB?

Also this is the upgraded (still in progress) from this system

Prairie Communications - Fleet Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Fleet Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

All sites and users are slowly being changed over to T3 from connect plus. So far all the sites are the same and some frequencies are being reused or have been removed from sites on Con+ and added to T3

 

[mtindor]

Honestly...because the SAME info is listed in the DB already?

Frequencies did not auto populate. I had to do the leg work to figure out what they were for what site and LCN
Only thing that auto populated is the LSN "Ch" on DSD+

Didnt know DFA was a thing. Guess if i see DMR freqs auto populate thats a good indication then. Why are they not to be added to the DB?

Also this is the upgraded (still in progress) from this system

Prairie Communications - Fleet Connect Trunking System, Multiple Locations, Ontario

Prairie Communications - Fleet Connect Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

All sites and users are slowly being changed over to T3 from connect plus. So far all the sites are the same and some frequencies are being reused or have been removed from sites on Con+ and added to T3

There are NXDN DFA systems and TIII DFA systems.

Actually I just found the reference I was looking for and it was referring to NXDN DFA systems -- which would broadcast channel IDs higher than 1023 (higher than what sentinel will accept). The same applies for TIII DFA systems -- LCNs too high for Sentinel to accept.

So in the DB, known DFA systems are to have their CH ID / LCNs set to 0, so that Sentinel will make those systems available.

This is a Uniden flaw - one that I'm guessing will never be fixed.

Anyway I wish I could help you. I can't. Could I if you have posted your Channel Activity window -- maybe? Without it, there are a lot of things I'm doubting about the information you've provided -- such as LSN/ch IDs in the 12000-14000 range.


Mike

 

[Muxlow]

There are NXDN DFA systems and TIII DFA systems.

Actually I just found the reference I was looking for and it was referring to NXDN DFA systems -- which would broadcast channel IDs higher than 1023 (higher than what sentinel will accept). The same applies for TIII DFA systems -- LCNs too high for Sentinel to accept.

So in the DB, known DFA systems are to have their CH ID / LCNs set to 0, so that Sentinel will make those systems available.

This is a Uniden flaw - one that I'm guessing will never be fixed.

Anyway I wish I could help you. I can't. Could I if you have posted your Channel Activity window -- maybe? Without it, there are a lot of things I'm doubting about the information you've provided -- such as LSN/ch IDs in the 12000-14000 range.


Mike

All i can say is a photo of the activity window wont provide you any info thats not already in the DB
So.. im going with its a uniden thing. And since the service provider can make the channel layout up however they want and there is no standard format it is what it is type deal.

90% of the system is encrypted anyways so no biggie really. Was just curious why it wasnt letting me enter info in that section is all

I'll try loading into the TRX and see if it screams and yells also or if they dont give a F about it since it dont truly trunk track

 

[slicerwizard]

And since the service provider can make the channel layout up however they want and there is no standard format it is what it is type deal.

That's bull. TIII channel numbers are transmitted in 12 bit fields. Maximum LCN is 4094. Maximum LSN displayed by DSD+ should be double that. No five digit values.