Codeplug, ASK and whatever else questions.

[K2NEC]

Why do you start a new thread for every question? Just continue in your previous threads.

 

[merlin]

A bit of update, the radio transmits about 1 second, a digital signal looks C4FM (P25?)
Simplexed. 851.0625 I have seen before, likely a test frequency. I have an M-RK next channel down with test.
This is also a ruggedized radio so for est $40, I got a deal anyway you slice it.

 

[merlin]

Why do you start a new thread for every question? Just continue in your previous threads.

I'll try to refrain from that in the future. TNX

 

[clbsquared]

A bit of update, the radio transmits about 1 second, a digital signal looks C4FM (P25?)
Simplexed. 851.0625 I have seen before, likely a test frequency. I have an M-RK next channel down with test.
This is also a ruggedized radio so for est $40, I got a deal anyway you slice it.

Sounds to me like it’s trying to affiliate to a system.

 

[merlin]

Oh boy. Alright where to start

I am working up a plan for what goes where, what I got so far is going through conventional, then cloning channels to trunking. 32 channels in scan list. you answered my question about talk groups, that is not so complex.
ElroyJetson laid this out nicely in another thread (thanks Elroy), just no detail re control channels. I know they have to fit into the trunking roots. What meant by defaults are like for buttons and controls(like the user guide) NOT the operational part of the codeplug, I know better about TX in these bands. I know switches and buttons are programable, I can customize those later. Yea, the online help has been my asset.
"" You’ll see a “trunking” section. This is where you input your trunking information. Control channels , voice channels, band plan, offsets, type, talkgroups, system ID and so on. The first thing you’ll need to do is load the software system keys ""
Most of that I think I can go through, lots of tiny steps one foot in front of the other. Keys are my weakness, is this something I generate or do I use keys from the system in mind ?
Past, I have programmed P25 conv with RPM(nightmares) but CPS seems easier.
I tried all the NAS codeplugs I could find, just not compatible. That would make my day.
"Thanks" 73s

 

[clbsquared]

System keys are generated FOR the specific system and are given to the system admin and are restricted. It’s not something that you can “legally” generate.
I see one mistake you’re getting ready to make. You don’t clone your conventional channels to your trunking channels. That’s not how NAS works. Your conventional frequencies should be far far away from the trunking frequencies. And they should be receive only. It doesn’t matter what frequency you choose to use. But you’ll use the same one 16 times in your first zone.

 

[clbsquared]

You’re super eager to learn how to do this. And we all have to start somewhere. But you’re a little too over ambitious. You can’t seem to grasp the concept of “system keys “ and how they play the most important roll in programming a trunking system on a Motorola radio. Without it, you’re dead in the water. I wish you the best of luck moving forward and sincerely hope you don’t do anything to cause yourself any undue legal trouble or worse ( affiliating to the system ) putting legitimate users in harms way.
So I say this with the most kindness I can muster.
Buy a scanner or a Unication pager. It’s much safer and easier.

Im out

 

[natedawg1604]

I'm going to PM the OP...

 

[ElroyJetson]

In a low activity system, such as, for example, military P25 systems on UHF low band, which typically aren't very busy at all, you can easily hear nearly all system traffic by simply scanning the voice channels in conventional P25 mode. That works great and it's SUPER safe to do. I recommend it for low activity systems, absolutely.

But if the system is busy enough that you NEED to scan by talkgroups, then you must start by fully setting up trunked systems. Please do yourself a huge favor and apply the "Hidden talkgroups" scanning method and follow the online guides for non affilate scanning.

Set up hidden talkgroups FIRST (but you will have to set up the trunked matrix and make dummy entries in the talkgroups lists if you haven't made your final list of talkgroups) so that you can always check your programming safely. The hidden talkgroups method, using mode slaved scan, is simple and robust and will work if your trunked system data is valid.

I'm not going to try to define the fundamentals of P25 trunked scanning (minimum requirements to get started) at the moment, simply because I'm not going to trust my memory completely, it's been a while since I last programmed it, and my programming reference materials are not on the computer I'm posting from. (This is a new machine and I have not yet installed any radio related software on it as of yet.)

 

[nhfdcadet]

Yep, sounds like it's been blanked or just never programmed. When I retired about 400 MTS-2000's at work, I put in codeplugs that had one RX only channel and all the buttons were programmed for "unassigned". It wood beep/boop if anything was done other than turning it on. Since the radios had data in them that would still work at our other sites, we didn't want to dump them and have them end up in the wrong hands. Not uncommon at all for people that have no idea what they are doing to buy used radios and just start using them on whatever channels are in them.



Well, there is no 'default', theres unprogrammed, or whatever someone left in there. When you get the right cable, you'll be able to read the radio.

I've seen some cities pay people to sit there with a box of radios and a drill press, rendering every radio inoperable one by one

 

[com501]

Take the antenna off, and wait until you get the cable so you can see what you have. Chances are the department had the radio shop default the radio somewhat. Once you got the software and cable from Motorola, you can read the radio and flashcode to see what is actually flashed to the radio.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

The basics for loading a P25 trunking system in an Astro 25 radio

1. Load system keys
2. Under Trunking > Trunking System, create a new system (the system key has to match the system you are creating)
3. Under the Trunking System created, fill out the relative info (SYS ID, WACN, Type, and Coverage Type) on the General tab.
4. Under the Trunking System created, go to the ASTRO 25 Channel ID tab and create the bandplan (check ID Enable, fill Channel Bandwidth, Transmit Offset Sign, Transmit Offset, Channel Spacing, and Base Frequency). If you are programming an OBT system...the band plan may make absolutely zero sense...that's okay.
5. Under the Trunking System created, go to the ASTRO 25 Control Channel tab and add the relative control channels (current and alternate, on a Motorola system this is typically 4 per site, on a Harris system this will be all of the channels at the site).

That's it. Everything else is done from the Trunking Personality, Scan and Zone Channel Assignment sections. The radio doesn't need to know what voice channels are available (that's what the band plan is for). If programming for a large multi site system you should limit the number of control channels you put in to the sites you actually want to scan.

 

[merlin]

My apologies making this sound more complicated than it is. The system keys(MOTO term) are the keys that prevent unauthorized persons from modifying codeplugs (NOT associated with any data encryption). I have two codeplugs that will work in this radio and both are locked with this key. I am at the point the trunking looks good (had to fudge the WACN) My channel and scan list looks good, groups look good, My hurdle is ANY frequency entered reverts to the single duplex frequency originally in the codeplug. the rest the radio accepted. The menu is problematic, not as programed. Controls and display is acceptable.
I am a little anxious to see this work rather than have a paperweight that beeps and boops.

 

[ElroyJetson]

What's your radio's flashcode? PM me if you don't want to post it here.
I'm vaguely remembering SOMETHING about the issue you describe, but not remembering the whole thing or the solution. Checking your flashcode may trigger the memory.

Has it been progammed previously with an Advanced System Key?

If ever there was a stupid idea Motorola came up with, it was the ASK. It has resulted in many radios going to surplus still programmed with
system data because the last technicians to touch the radio prior to retirement did not have the ASK or did not use it to deprogram the radio,
and then you have a radio that is permanently programmed unless you use the ASK removal tool.

Presence of the ASK makes the radio codeplug non-editable if you do not have a valid copy of the key itself.

From a security perspective, it makes sense to be able to lock the radio's personality so it can't be edited, but it should always be possible to completely DELETE systems data from the radio.

 

[ElroyJetson]

There is an advanced system key removal tool out there on the web. It's not easy to find. It's probably easier to have a private conversation with someone in the know who does.

To be clear about it, no, I don't have it. I've never had a need for it.

 

[merlin]

There is an advanced system key removal tool out there on the web. It's not easy to find. It's probably easier to have a private conversation with someone in the know who does.

To be clear about it, no, I don't have it. I've never had a need for it.

Yea, I have it, used it, and even though it completed with success, much of the codeplug you still can't edit.
What I learned is there is a serial number and owner ID number that goes with the key.
You can extract it, look at it, but if you are not the owner and enter the serial number, it is about worthless beyond that.
A large system admin gets software and a hard key(USB dongle) then uses that for the system keys.
The last few bytes are X-ored with the system ID and that is the key goes to site amins . gives access to authorized persons (RIDs)to connect. The other feature is these admins program the radios and set the key. this locks the codeplug so unauthorized persons cant change important trunking data.
Data encryption keys are for decrypting the voce channels, a different thing.
A lot of people buy surplus radios from auctions or ebay, usually de-programmed. they can't have these people putting these radios back in operation at risk of public safety groups, and that very illegal.
I just coined my first working DIY codeplug, not locked with any key but 'married' to my radio.
Try writing to a different radio, it won't work.
I am still learning this whole key thing, but I will get there.
73s

 

[merlin]

Sounds to me like it’s trying to affiliate to a system.

That was my first thought given the dummy load, but a minimal nonconventional non trunking codeplug does the same. The battery icon shows and beeps. Hope the battery isn't failing, these ruggedized batteries are not cheap.
On charge now, I will know more later.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

What's your radio's flashcode? PM me if you don't want to post it here.
I'm vaguely remembering SOMETHING about the issue you describe, but not remembering the whole thing or the solution. Checking your flashcode may trigger the memory.

Has it been progammed previously with an Advanced System Key?

If ever there was a stupid idea Motorola came up with, it was the ASK. It has resulted in many radios going to surplus still programmed with
system data because the last technicians to touch the radio prior to retirement did not have the ASK or did not use it to deprogram the radio,
and then you have a radio that is permanently programmed unless you use the ASK removal tool.

Presence of the ASK makes the radio codeplug non-editable if you do not have a valid copy of the key itself.

From a security perspective, it makes sense to be able to lock the radio's personality so it can't be edited, but it should always be possible to completely DELETE systems data from the radio.

Your understanding of the ASK functionality is a little off. There is a flash option that requires an ASK to edit a codeplug (the long term idea is that APX CPS will eventually eliminate support for soft keys). If that option is not present however, you can go back and forth as much as you want between a soft key and ASK and you will be able to edit parts of the codeplug without the ASK (like zone channel assignment, conventional options, delete trunking systems, etc). The idea was to keep a soft key from being easily distributed (via file transfer) or to keep keys from being generated (since Motorola's key generation software was leaked in the late 90's).

 

[merlin]

Take the antenna off, and wait until you get the cable so you can see what you have. Chances are the department had the radio shop default the radio somewhat. Once you got the software and cable from Motorola, you can read the radio and flashcode to see what is actually flashed to the radio.

The codeplug has been blanked, former Brooklyn Park FD and out of MOTOs foundry.
Radio info shows 'unprogrammed 5000-3. I am ridding the codeplug anyway, I made a DIY that works so that is my start point.

 

[merlin]

I've seen some cities pay people to sit there with a box of radios and a drill press, rendering every radio inoperable one by one

They recycle the aluminum and metals on the PCB. ( a 48 Oz ball peen hammer works)