Could we be heading for an "underground" scanning market?

[jjudson]

I'm rather new to scanning (only a couple of years - and not quite the level of a scanning geek yet). As I learn more to become a scanning geek, I keep running across all of these newly encrypted and proprietary systems that apparently commercial scanners will never be able to crack - at least legally. It seems now that entire states like Pennsylvania are adopting these across-the-board encrypted systems like StarNet OpenSky which essentially will lock EVERYONE out of the hobby in those regions.

So I got to wonderin'...

Back in the 80s, I remember folks used to have satellite dishes that were the size of a small house. Many of those people weren't comfortable just receiving whatever package was available to them from the satellite providers of the day, so a lot of them purchased descramblers that were available on the black market. Suddenly - PORN was available 24/7!

I wonder if some European or Russian manufacturers would do the same thing for the scanning world in the future? Not deliver porn, of course, but offer scanner boxes on the black market that would illegally decrypt these proprietary signals and once again open the world up to a whole new breed of underground hobbyists. It seems a possibility. I mean, Sony couldn't come up with an encryption scheme for their audio CDs that couldn't be broken on the first day it was released.

What do you all think? Is there hope out there for those folks - not me of course - who would look to the underworld to keep their hobby going?

...like I said, just wonderin'.

 

[N_Jay]

There have been many threads on this topic.
They usually devolve into meaningless rambling and arguing because many people have mistaken understanding of encryption systems.

If you do a search you will find much to read.

In general, the systems that have been broken have been because there were well known security holes when they were releases.
Additionally, any system where the key is publicly available or sharred with a large consumer group is very weak.
The issue with the encryption schemes used is not breaking the encryption, but rather finding the key.
This is very difficult in a closed system such as a public safety radio system.

 

[jjudson]

I did search - and read many things on it. But none of them really focused just on the fantasy of illegal underground scanners - not that I would want one, of course.

I'm not so convinced, though, that this is such an impossible task - more so today than in times past.

 

[brandon]

This post talks about a Korean company working on a 996XT clone with the ability to flash with "third party firmware". It will be interesting to see if its anything other than vapor ware and what the Chinese, Israelis and Russians come up with.

 

[mancow]

But, you have to take into account the fact that many of these algorithms have been evaluated and certified free of simple attack methods by the NSA / NIST for use within Government systems.

 

[RayAir]

I'm rather new to scanning (only a couple of years - and not quite the level of a scanning geek yet). As I learn more to become a scanning geek, I keep running across all of these newly encrypted and proprietary systems that apparently commercial scanners will never be able to crack - at least legally. It seems now that entire states like Pennsylvania are adopting these across-the-board encrypted systems like StarNet OpenSky which essentially will lock EVERYONE out of the hobby in those regions.

So I got to wonderin'...

Back in the 80s, I remember folks used to have satellite dishes that were the size of a small house. Many of those people weren't comfortable just receiving whatever package was available to them from the satellite providers of the day, so a lot of them purchased descramblers that were available on the black market. Suddenly - PORN was available 24/7!

I wonder if some European or Russian manufacturers would do the same thing for the scanning world in the future? Not deliver porn, of course, but offer scanner boxes on the black market that would illegally decrypt these proprietary signals and once again open the world up to a whole new breed of underground hobbyists. It seems a possibility. I mean, Sony couldn't come up with an encryption scheme for their audio CDs that couldn't be broken on the first day it was released.

What do you all think? Is there hope out there for those folks - not me of course - who would look to the underworld to keep their hobby going?

...like I said, just wonderin'.

Human curiosity will always make us wish we could listen in on encrypted comms, but it won't happen. Old school satellite and cable TV scrambling schemes were all equivalent to fixed voice inversion when it comes to security. Static scrambling systems such as gated sync, tri-mode and SSAVI were all easy to break as the analog scrambling scheme never changed. Once it was figured out a simple decoder was all that was needed. The newer digital stuff is much more sophisticated, using complex mathematical algorithms for encryption. So sorry, no manufacturer from Russia is going to make a scanner that can break today's encryption, or even yesterdays such as DES. Wishful thinking though!

 

[jjudson]

...no manufacturer from Russia is going to make a scanner that can break today's encryption, or even yesterdays such as DES. Wishful thinking though!

That sounds like a challenge!

As I mentioned, I'm not so sure that digital encryption methods ultimately are so air-tight. Do a Google search on "break encryption." It's astounding the amount of effort that goes into decrypting digital encryption algorithms. Any brainiac kid with a computer in his garage these days is trying to figure out how to mess with the system - or hack the latest video game. News just came out last week that TrueCrypt was just broken - and that provides encryption levels as high as 256 bit. In the entertainment industry, the RIAA can't keep up with the number of hacks that attack their supposedly "unbreakable" digital encryption methods. And I think it will only get worse as PC power increases - which is logarithmic in its explosive growth.

...of course again, I would NEVER want one of these scanner things if someone made them.

 

[N_Jay]

And down teh "devolution" path we go.

I did search - and read many things on it. But none of them really focused just on the fantasy of illegal underground scanners - not that I would want one, of course.

Maybe that is the problem, you care not separating "fantacy" from "Reality"?

I'm not so convinced, though, that this is such an impossible task - more so today than in times past.

In a fantasy world, the task is trivial. In the real world, the task is extremely difficult.
The issue is whether it can be accomplished in a period of time and at a cost that makes it at all practical to pursue.
The answer is "NO", and not by a little bit, but by a overwhelming amount.

This post talks about a Korean company working on a 996XT clone with the ability to flash with "third party firmware". It will be interesting to see if its anything other than vapor ware and what the Chinese, Israelis and Russians come up with.

But that does not address the two basic issues.
1) Breaking a modern encryption that is actively being tested (and will be decommissioned if vulnerabilities are found)
2) hacking or otherwise discovering a usable key from a closed system (Which can typically change keys fairly quickly)

So cloning a scanner (like the market is big enough to warrant such an effort) gets you no closer.
You can already buy all the components to integrate a scanner/receiver with a PC. No more hardware is needed.

But, you have to take into account the fact that many of these algorithms have been evaluated and certified free of simple attack methods by the NSA / NIST for use within Government systems.

Ding, Ding, Ding; We have a winner.

 

[N_Jay]

That sounds like a challenge!

As I mentioned, I'm not so sure that digital encryption methods ultimately are so air-tight. Do a Google search on "break encryption." It's astounding the amount of effort that goes into decrypting digital encryption algorithms. Any brainiac kid with a computer in his garage these days is trying to figure out how to mess with the system - or hack the latest video game. In the entertainment industry, the RIAA can't keep up with the number of hacks that attack their supposedly "unbreakable" digital encryption methods. And I think it will only get worse as PC power increases - which is logarithmic in its explosive growth.

...of course again, I would NEVER want one of these scanner things if someone made them.

And you remain firmly seated in your fantasy world.

Find ONE (just one in all the googling you have done) of a REAL ex encryption crack.
Not an exploit of a well known vulnerability. Not a stolen key crack, not a hardware bypass of a simplistic encryption/scrambling system.

None of those but a REAL encryption crack? DES?
Was any money stolen from the Billions transferred by DES during its useful life?
Nope, none, zero, zip, zilch. And you think the "want" for a scanner is going to encourage the Russians or the Chinese? Get real!

 

[jjudson]

And you remain firmly seated in your fantasy world.

Yes, this is a fantasy thread - that's the point of it.

Find ONE (just one in all the googling you have done) of a REAL ex encryption crack. Not an exploit of a well known vulnerability. Not a stolen key crack, not a hardware bypass of a simplistic encryption/scrambling system.

I made an edit to that thread as you were typing. Just last week, news came out that TrueCrypt had been broken. I can't find the original story, but here are some threads on it:

Hak5 Forums > TrueCrypt Hacked

I'm just saying, this ain't the 90s. There are folks out there who are dedicating their lives to stealing high tech information - and they have to get through encryption to do it.

...and it doesn't appear to be stopping them from working on it.

 

[gmclam]

If there is a "demand" for something, and it is somehow "prohibited", there will always be an underground market. However, sometimes that market is just a bunch of geeks and has no commercial intent.

I keep running across all of these newly encrypted and proprietary systems that apparently commercial scanners will never be able to crack - at least legally.

There are some different issues at work here. One is specific laws that prohibit certain things like de-crypting signals. Another is the ridiculous licensing fees that companies have to pay to use a system. Yet another is the fact that some of these systems are simply being marketed as "not scannable". That last category is one which many geeks will take as a challenge, and that will/does lead to what you are speaking of.

Back in the 80s, I remember folks used to have satellite dishes that were the size of a small house. Many of those people weren't comfortable just receiving whatever package was available to them from the satellite providers of the day...

Before we had DBS (Direct broadcast Satellite), the only thing out there were Ku & C band satellites. Those bands were mostly used by TV broadcasters to get remote signals to their networks. Certainly there were other things mixed in. They were all analog and 'open' for anyone with a receiver to watch. The broadcasters complained and Congress passed laws - the SHVRA speficially. The passing of those laws created a new black market to sell decoders/etc to bypass authentication devices. Penalties for violating these laws are stiff, they are Federal crimes.

I wonder if some European or Russian manufacturers would do the same thing for the scanning world in the future?

I don't see the connection. The black market for home satellite reception was illegal and not done by legimiate companies. No legitimate company is going to create such scanners - and even if they could, it would be a crime to get them imported. But that does not mean that geeks will home brew their own stuff, and share how to do it in some 'underground' forums.

I laugh every time someone represents their digital encryption as being 100% safe or a number very close to that. Now receiving and decoding in real time might not be currently possible, but that does not mean someone can not record the encrypted digital stream and run it through all possible software combinations to break it. Computers keep getting faster. That does not mean the encryption is broken, but that a key can be discovered for some point in past time.

I have lobbied here in my state capitol for other issues many years ago. One thing that I learned which continues to amaze me these days is that government has the mentality that when they pass a law people will simply start obeying it. LOL. We all know that is not true and there is always a group that seems to do things simply because they are illegal. So as more restrictions are put on receiving free over-the-air waves, the more will be 'underground'.

 

[jjudson]

None of those but a REAL encryption crack? DES?

Here's an online book that might interest you. I'm not sure if it meets your definition, but I'm going to read it as you peaked my interest.

 

[N_Jay]

Yes, this is a fantasy thread - that's the point of it.

Fantasies should probably be discussed in the Tavern (Just my opinion)

(In my fantasy world, encryption is perfect, but we are discussing reality)

I made an edit to that thread as you were typing. Just last week, news came out that TrueCrypt had been broken. I can't find the original story, but here are some threads on it:

Hak5 Forums > TrueCrypt Hacked

I'm just saying, this ain't the 90s. There are folks out there who are dedicating their lives to stealing high tech information - and they have to get through encryption to do it.

...and it doesn't appear to be stopping them from working on it.

You may want to recheck, but I don't think the TruCypt encryption was hacked.
Anyone know enough to speak to this?

 

[jjudson]

But that does not mean that geeks will home brew their own stuff, and share how to do it in some 'underground' forums.

I remember back in the eighties that there were a plethora of plans for descramblers available in the back of magazines. The plans showed you how to build your own descrambler that would descramble cable television channels - but they were for EDUCATIONAL purposes ONLY!

HA!

 

[N_Jay]

I remember back in the eighties that there were a plethora of plans for descramblers available in the back of magazines. The plans showed you how to build your own descrambler that would descramble cable television channels - but they were for EDUCATIONAL purposes ONLY!

HA!

Yet, even today's bad guys have not cracked AES.

Maybe that hints at the difference in difficulty?

 

[jjudson]

Yet, even today's bad guys have not cracked AES.

Doesn't look like it yet - but they are getting close:

Japanese Computer Scientists Crack WPA - Though WPA 2 devices, AES WPA systems not impacted. - dslreports.com

I guess my point here is that there's always someone working on breaking what people think are unbreakable. It's just human nature I guess. And who knows, a few years down the road as knowledge gets better and computers get more powerful, some enterprising young geek will post an algorithem to break OpenSky and ProVoice.

It's inevitable. You can't fight it - join the BORG.

 

[gmclam]

Yet, even today's bad guys have not cracked AES.

Maybe that hints at the difference in difficulty?

No "bad guy" smart enough to break encryption or the like is going to be stupid enough to broadcast it to the world.

 

[n5ims]

Just remember that there are two (possibly more) types of "cracking" encryption:

The first is cracking it in a way that would be useful for real-time decription. This is quite dificult to do for the recent "secure" encryption methods. This is what would be required for this "underground scanner".

The second is to take a fixed sample and decrypt it. This is somewhat easy to accomplish by throwing billions of CPU cycles at it. While this will allow you the "glory" of saying that you have "cracked" this encryption, which will be reported in the web sites and some media looking for headlines. Unfortunatly, this will get you no closer to doing this in real-time with actual "secure" transmissions.

 

[gmclam]

Take that thought to the next level

The second is to take a fixed sample and decrypt it. This is somewhat easy to accomplish by throwing billions of CPU cycles at it. While this will allow you the "glory" of saying that you have "cracked" this encryption, which will be reported in the web sites and some media looking for headlines. Unfortunatly, this will get you no closer to doing this in real-time with actual "secure" transmissions.

One of the arguments being used against encryption is when the police do not do their jobs correctly (being nice here). I could see a case in court where someone could produce a digital recording of encrypted police traffic, and show what really happened. The key could be obtained with a legal warrant (I believe). But of course lawyers/etc would want to know what was said before court. So I do not see this type of 'decryption' as being useless.

 

[N_Jay]

Doesn't look like it yet - but they are getting close:

Japanese Computer Scientists Crack WPA - Though WPA 2 devices, AES WPA systems not impacted. - dslreports.com

I guess my point here is that there's always someone working on breaking what people think are unbreakable. It's just human nature I guess. And who knows, a few years down the road as knowledge gets better and computers get more powerful, some enterprising young geek will post an algorithem to break OpenSky and ProVoice.

It's inevitable. You can't fight it - join the BORG.

When AS WPA is broken I bet it is through the key sharing and not he AES.

Someone wake me up if I am wrong, as I will not be watching.

As for Pro-voice, it is not even encrypted (there is arguments about basic OpenSky), and no one has put the time and effort into it yet.

So I am not too concerned.