DAS banned in Denver and Seattle?

[Project25_MASTR]

I thought they needed to have Part 90 certification, but I could be wrong. Part 15 sounds like something the Chinese would slap on there.

Wilson/WeBoost was making low power BDAs that were supposed to be unlicensed or something. I know at one point the radio shop from the GMRS system in DFW stopped my office at the time hunting RF issues...told them about Wilson's office in the next building over and never heard from them again.

As much of a pain as BDA's are becoming in addition to how much noise they are creating...I'm really starting to limit approval for their use on my end as well. One of the local city's Fire Marshal wants to adopt the current most NFPA standards without grandfathering to enforce in-building requirement and I'm about at the point of telling them they can do that but they aren't putting the BDA's on the trunking system...build out a local 800 MHz site or use SmartConnect (either way they would have to upgrade radios) or have local repeaters they can switch on and off on demand.

 

[mmckenna]

I was thinking some of those low end Wilson units were probably Part 15 for cellular, but not Part 90.

I've been fighting this at work. A lot of construction going on and they want to toe the NFPA line. I've talked with our local Fire Marshal about this and have put a hold on it since all the local stuff is going to change in the next few years. Likely won't need BDA's, but if they do, I want them to be a DAS system. I'm one guy and can't deal with a whole bunch of BDA's wrecking things.

Had one project come in with a list of frequencies they wanted to add to the BDA's we didn't need. Sure enough, the contractor had pulled the frequencies from RadioReference, errors and all!

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I was thinking some of those low end Wilson units were probably Part 15 for cellular, but not Part 90.

I've been fighting this at work. A lot of construction going on and they want to toe the NFPA line. I've talked with our local Fire Marshal about this and have put a hold on it since all the local stuff is going to change in the next few years. Likely won't need BDA's, but if they do, I want them to be a DAS system. I'm one guy and can't deal with a whole bunch of BDA's wrecking things.

Had one project come in with a list of frequencies they wanted to add to the BDA's we didn't need. Sure enough, the contractor had pulled the frequencies from RadioReference, errors and all!

Exactly. I'm one guy that manages what's going on three counties on the trunking side plus the duties to the county that pays my salary for all of their conventional needs.

 

[KevinC]

I know at one point the radio shop from the GMRS system in DFW stopped my office at the time hunting RF issues.

Was it Eric? It was probably the issue I worked after they tried for weeks to find it. Ended up being a BDA at the Dallas Southside Wastewater Treatment Plant.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Was it Eric? It was probably the issue I worked after they tried for weeks to find it. Ended up being a BDA at the Dallas Southside Wastewater Treatment Plant.

This was pre-COVID and I honestly don't remember as I was between the Bear and EFJ not doing LMR stuff.

 

[KevinC]

This was pre-COVID and I honestly don't remember as I was between the Bear and EFJ not doing LMR stuff.

Ok, this was pre-COVID as well.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Ended up being a BDA at the Dallas Southside Wastewater Treatment Plant.

My observation of our WWTF is almost all of it is outside, were they using it for underground coverage beneath a tank or clarifier?

 

[KevinC]

My observation of our WWTF is almost all of it is outside, were they using it for underground coverage beneath a tank or clarifier?

I tracked it down as far as the donor antenna. After that I turned it over to the City of Garland, so I don’t know what/where the service area was.

 

[amcferrin90]

A little late to this party. I'm not aware of Wilson making a part 90 booster. I have heard from manufacturers that have had personal conversations with licensees in the northwest and yes they were threatening to ban BDA/DAS systems. This was because these systems were not being installed correctly, creating interference, pushing up noise, not being programmed correctly and myriad of other issues caused by untrained, inexperienced people. Thank you to the IFC not the NFPA for the sudden boost in these systems. Thank you to the fire marshals who are approving these without proper authority and without the knowledge of how to approve them. And thank you to many manufacturers who will sell to anyone that takes their 10 question training quiz and is now certified to install.

I do install these systems but I get permission from the licensee. They have an application that requires information that if completed correctly they have reasonable certainty that the installation will be done correctly. I notify these people when I'm doing a startup so they know if something goes wonky who to start with. We all have our cell phone numbers exchanged for this purpose. It has happened once. I'm told by these people how they are constantly chasing interference. One BDA installed by a company from out of state didn't have one complete set of channels programmed in it. But the fire marshal signed off on it.

As a person who's put a lot of money into test gear, hardware, tools, training I hope these trunk slammers start getting fined.

 

[MTS2000des]

The problem is the industry is riddled with inexperienced, incompetent, ill equipped, misinformed persons who have ZERO business installing anything RF, let alone a complex and intricate system such as a BDA. It should be noted that the FCC public notice DA19-1255 reminds all that per FCC rule 47 CFR 90.219, written permission MUST be obtained from the licensee or else the operation of such public safety signal booster is UNAUTHORIZED and subjects the property owner to FCC enforcement action, as well as local AHJ enforcement action.

Such a case resulted in a property owner having to write a $93,339 check to my employer as they had an unauthorized and in my case, completely useless BDA slamming -85dbm of hash and trash from their slipshod, Mickey Mouse, amateur, shade tree, half-ass and downright absurd so called "install" of such an unauthorized BDA into my 12 channel P25 trunked radio system resulting in 6 months of endless debilitating interference that put the lives of the system users, and the public, at risk. They are damn lucky no one got hurt as a hundred grand might be a cheap price considering the potentially deadly consequences.

Forewarned is fair warned to you BDA folks. Do it right. Get permission, or FAFO. As long as I am getting a paycheck, my mission is to keep my users safe from unauthorized use and I CLEAR MY PLATE and LASER FOCUS on those who are a threat to our system and stop at NOTHING to take them down.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I looked at the FCC BDA site and found the one in our county government center is not listed. I only see one for our county, a few years ago a security officer at a hospital said they have one, it's not on there either. They kept it off because it caused RFI to the hospital's UHF systems.
I know our county's ops board asked another hospital to put one in when they wanted on the SAFE-T system, never heard if that was installed.

Would an ERP limit on donor antennas help?

 

[amcferrin90]

A BDA max uplink power is only 27 dBm. A directional antenna pointed at the tower is strongly recommended and those are +11-+13 dBi depending on brand. The installer is supposed to do the uplink gain adjustment in the booster based on FSPL and the received downlink RSSI. If done correctly the BDA should arrive at the tower around -90 to -95 dBm. In other words at the similar signal of a portable. The uplink transmission should turn off when there's no active transmission from inside the building. The indoor antenna network is to be designed such that the downlink signal does not extend more than 5 feet outside the installed building. Also so that outside uplink transmissions don't activate the BDA. That's hard if you got a 35 watt mobile driving down the street but not too hard if you have a 2 watt portable next door.

What can also happen is one BDA transmitting uplink to the tower and nearby buildings also having a BDA picking up the uplink on the inside and re-transmitting. If the installer the the FSPL and gain adjustment properly this too shouldn't be a problem.

As far as registration, only class B boosters are required to be registered as they are not required to have permission from the licensed. This is because they're broadband and boosting a range of frequencies. Class A boosters don't have to be registered because they're required to have the licensee's written retransmit permission. The licensee then would have a database of installed boosters. There's a push to require registering both types with the FCC. I register all of mine regardless. That may be why only a few show up.

Imagine a hack that doesn't follow any of these requirements. This is where problems happen. On top of adding interference hunting to the work load of the licensees who are already under funded.

 

[MTS2000des]

Imagine a hack that doesn't follow any of these requirements. This is where problems happen. On top of adding interference hunting to the work load of the licensees who are already under funded.

I've lived it. Below are the actual photos of the slipshod, shade tree, advice gleamed from hobbyist forum built, redneck installed, low rent, high BER generating TURD that put illegal carriers for 6 months on my system. Completely unauthorized. Completely not needed as the AHJ having response is a city not us. But when you have baggage handlers flying airplanes, you have lots of twisted metal and dead bodies on the ground. Again, this business is a dangerous one. Do it right. Or not at all.

 

[mmckenna]

Below are the actual photos of the slipshod, shade tree, advice gleamed from hobbyist forum built, redneck installed, low rent, high BER generating TURD that put illegal carriers for 6 months on my system.

Wow. Looks like the last ham repeater site I was at. Or for that matter the last local WISP site I was at.
WTF, did they buy all the cable per-terminated and not want to cut any of it to length?

 

[WB5UOM]

That looks very similar to the installation I ran in to here...red boxes, different names...

 

[speedway_navigator]

That's hard if you got a 35 watt mobile driving down the street but not too hard if you have a 2 watt portable next door.

I would imagine the E glass windows would help isolate the building's system from the outside world. Our home in AZ has tinted windows with a 5-6 dB loss factor. We were on Verizon when we moved there and phones would drop out from the front to back of the house. T Mobile works fine.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I would imagine the E glass windows would help isolate the building's system from the outside world. Our home in AZ has tinted windows with a 5-6 dB loss factor. We were on Verizon when we moved there and phones would drop out from the front to back of the house. T Mobile works fine.

Measured 30 dB of attenuation at the Texas Live Hotel in Arlington on the first guest floor which sits 18" above the convention center's roof. The measurements were taken 2 feet apart, one on the outside and one on the inside of the glass.

 

[lenk911]

Measured 30 dB of attenuation

In what band did you get this measurement, 460, 700-800?

 

[PACNWDude]

Wow, and I was leaning on the installer for the grounding on this installation. Dictating how they needed to embrace R56 a little more too on the rest of the installation work. I might need to mellow out a bit.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

In what band did you get this measurement, 460, 700-800?

800 MHz