Defund Encryption

[dirtrat]

Don't get caught up in the Politics and social media hoopla. Their are new requirements in place that require RECORDS channels to be encrypted because of Privacy concerns. Additionally SWAT teams use encrypted channels for good reasons!

 

[KK4JUG]

Don't get caught up in the Politics and social media hoopla. Their are new requirements in place that require RECORDS channels to be encrypted because of Privacy concerns. Additionally SWAT teams use encrypted channels for good reasons!

What requirements?

 

[AK9R]

To the multiple people who have reported this thread, don't think that the moderators are not paying attention. We are.

Discussing encrypted radio communications is not a forbidden topic in the RadioReference forums. What we frown upon are endless arguments linking encryption with live streaming. Those sorts of conversations usually involve multiple posts, sometimes get heated, and usually don't resolve anything. That's why we have this thread on the Off Topic Wireless board in the Tavern. Oh, and you can dispense with the "E" euphemism. We know you mean "encryption" and it's not a banned word.

We have no issue with the OP's intent to pursue legislative restrictions on encrypted public safety radio communications. We ask that you keep the conversation civil and on topic.

 

[ScubaJungle]

All of you guys make good points, I agree that the major problem-solver would be ensuring that any "bad cops" are gone, which is done from a leadership/managerial standpoint, but I also think that ensuring that the public has access to, what is a public service, is extremely important. Both of those opinions, @mmckenna and @alcahuete are great, and I don't think they should be counterpoints, rather complementary points. If both the leadership issue and oversight issue could be solved together, it would do more than just one alone

 

[trentbob]

As far as Government controlling encryption, that's how it's done in my County. The County Commissioners determined the rules for the county Communications center.

All routine dispatch is in the clear, any Police Department can encrypt if they have something sensitive going on. And they must return to routine policy when the event is over. They also have Ops channels that are encrypted and SWAT channels that are encrypted and the data channels are always encrypted.

Police Chiefs Association went to the commissioners and said because of the virus they had to go full-time encryption and the commissioner said... NO!

However, because of the rioters and violence of which we don't have any of in my suburban area and unsubstantiated, generalized threats to police on public media, the police chiefs asked the supervisors to approve full-time encryption now on all talk groups. We are now totally encrypted secondary to this civil unrest of which we don't have any of.

Insiders have talked to the Commissioners and have been assured that eventually things will go back to the policy the way it still exists and we will go unencrypted again when it is safe for the police.

With the media fueling the violence and social media doing their thing I wonder if we will ever be in the clear again? For now, we are totally encrypted. First Responders for volunteer fire departments and EMS personnel are affected the most, as they do not have encrypted radios and cannot hear the police anymore. Media is also locked out.

We wait to see if the county Commissioners will return operations to the way the public policy is written.

 

[mmckenna]

Don't get caught up in the Politics and social media hoopla. Their are new requirements in place that require RECORDS channels to be encrypted because of Privacy concerns. Additionally SWAT teams use encrypted channels for good reasons!

I'd like to see a link to that.
I'm not aware of any such requirement on the federal level, and not in my state.
If you are referring to HIPAA, that's not a requirement. Often confused by hobbyists...

 

[mmckenna]

Both of those opinions, @mmckenna and @alcahuete are great, and I don't think they should be counterpoints, rather complementary points.

Thanks, I agree. It's a complex subject and it requires visibility from multiple angles to understand whats going on. Encryption has it's place, and it's here to stay. But there are some very valid reasons to keep some traffic unencrypted.

The decision to encrypt will vary from agency to agency. There is no 'requirement' to encrypt, just local decisions based on multiple factors.

There's also nothing to stop anyone from requesting an agency keep traffic in the clear. Just don't expect the desires of the hobby to be a compelling reason to any agency. You'd have to come up with some very good reasons why it's in the public's best interest and why other means of examining the details of policing in your community won't fill the need.

 

[mmckenna]

We have no issue with the OP's intent to pursue legislative restrictions on encrypted public safety radio communications. We ask that you keep the conversation civil and on topic.

Discussing this subject like adults should't be discouraged, and I'm happy to see this has been left open. Thank you. When/if it gets out of control, shut it down.

 

[mastr]

The thing is, the government has not generally been in favor of restrictions on itself.

 

[radiopro52]

I think most people would be satisfied with having dispatch in the clear and all other tactical channels encrypted if they choose. That's how it is in my nearby city of Huntsville, AL and I think its a fair compromise. However if you talk to the average police officer they'll probably tell you that they don't want the general public listening to their communications, and some may even say that we don't have a right to do so. Add to that the fact that sensitive information like SSNs and DL numbers can be often heard on dispatch as well makes it tough to have a hard case against agencies that encrypt. Like it or not I think encryption is here to stay and we're just going to see more of it as time goes on especially with current events.

 

[mmckenna]

I think most people would be satisfied with having dispatch in the clear and all other tactical channels encrypted if they choose.

Yep, and/or get the agency to stream traffic with a suitable delay.

 

[AK9R]

Also, discussions of politics, including labeling people or groups as "left wing" or "right wing" is discouraged. Stay on topic.

 

[RayAir]

Civil unrest is what prompted St Louis area PDs on SLATER and St Louis County Sheriff on MOSWIN to go private by enabling ADP encryption. Super secure anti-scanner security.

 

[Paysonscanner]

Someone made a comment about scanner listeners being a tiny minority of the people who need information. That is probably true in cities. In rural areas there is a significant number of people with scanners. We don't have TV stations that report from the scenes of incidents. Our radio stations, if we have them, don't often do live reports of incidents. The newspapers, if we have any, might report on an incident or might not. If they do, it might be 2 weeks until we read about it. Papers are often weekly, not daily. Rural areas have wildland fires, snowstorms, floods and other types of incidents that affect us more than those in cities. For example, if we have a road washout there might be no detour and people get cut off from access to evacuation shelters and supplies. Wildland fires can approach very quickly and we need the scanner to figure out how to react. Listening to the county road department and the state DOT is essential to hear about road conditions. Law enforcement traffic is often where road, weather and fire information comes from. Rural areas tend to have far more power outages than cities and listening to public utilities is helpful. It is not uncommon to go into a business, like a hardware store, and hear a scanner behind the counter or in the office. The same goes for the NAPA store that are nearly perfunctory in small towns. Agencies need to monitor each other in rural areas. In California agencies with different radio bands sometimes overcome this by cross talking using a scanner on each side of the conversation. Scanners are usually going in law enforcement vehicles, fire vehicles and EMS rigs. When I worked in a small town hospital for nearly 40 years we had one going in the ER, nearly all the time. The information helped us keep prepared. At night we might not have a physician on duty, but on call. When nurses hear of a traffic accident with injuries, we would call that physician before the CHP or the county would call us. It mattered, because every minute counts for a lot of accidents and medical conditions.

In rural areas this is possible because there is far less radio traffic on frequencies than in urban areas. We tend to hear what matters more quickly and easier than in cities. Not only that, for the most part many rural areas already have interoperability because the primary band is VHF High. With these radios holding dozens to hundreds of channels it is easy to talk with most other agencies. I hate to see states build massive 700/800 meg trunked systems that need a kagillion repeaters and end the easy interoperability that was already in existence. I don't know what will happen if everyone starts encrypting things in rural areas.

 

[mmckenna]

Someone made a comment about scanner listeners being a tiny minority of the people who need information.

That would have been me.
I've lived and worked in rural areas quite a bit, and am aware of this. One very remote area I was working last week had a car accident on a remote stretch of road that triggered a brush fire. No broadcast radio stations in the area, very few from outside can be received, and all on the AM band. Working phone lines are few and far between, and unless you stand on the right peak, no cellular service.
Most people in that area are active on a unofficial GMRS network. No repeaters, mostly FRS/GMRS radios, but quite a few with dual band Baofengs. It's a shame, CB would probably have worked better, but I digress…. Not uncommon for them to have CalFire and local fire agencies programmed in. In fact, the group I was doing the work for had a handful of cheap Baofengs strictly for listening in on CalFire. When the fire started, the dispatched one of their staff to a high peak to monitor CalFire and watch for signs the fire was progressing towards their land.

I don't know what will happen if everyone starts encrypting things in rural areas.

I don't think there's a lot of good justification for fire agencies to go encrypted. For large agencies that have investigators, I can see a possible need, but not enough to warrant it. In a small agency with one channel, no reason for encryption.
Most law enforcement is CHP, so not encrypted, but most don't have low band capable radios, or are not interested in putting up a suitable antenna for it to work well.
Sheriff covers the area, but they are few and far between, usually only in the area if dispatched.

But you do bring up some very valid points that apply well to the rural parts of the country. Again, I think keeping primary dispatch channels in the clear is a good idea for most agencies. But knowing that there are so many listening in might make some agencies uneasy. Simplex encrypted channels are a good solution. Problem I've run into is some small agencies don't know much about their radios, or how to set things up in a way that works well. There are still a lot of agencies that are not loading national interop channels in to their radios. One recent post showed that one agency still had some wide band radios in use.

 

[georgesharpe]

Some Canadian cities use Twitter to inform the media and the public, in real time, of major incidents like major fires, crime alerts, missing children etc. I've always used my scanners to stay AWAY from fires, crimes, etc., for my own personal safety. In my area it is very useful to know when it not safe to go outside.

 

[mmckenna]

Some Canadian cities use Twitter to inform the media and the public, in real time, of major incidents like major fires, crime alerts, missing children etc. I've always used my scanners to stay AWAY from fires, crimes, etc., for my own personal safety. In my area it is very useful to know when it not safe to go outside.

Right, and that's a preferred method by many agencies. But as Paysonscanner pointed out, some areas of our countries don't have cellular coverage, so reaching rural areas can be a challenge. Maybe at some point improved network coverage, maybe even LEO satellite based, will make this easier.

But social media is a good tool. It allows agencies to release specific info to the right audience. Around here, text alerts are used often for this sort of stuff. More people with cell phones than scanners. Using the FEMA IPAWS system gives them even more opportunities to reach all cellular phones in a given area. But like was said above, no cellular coverage, no alerts.

 

[AK9R]

Listening to the county road department and the state DOT is essential to hear about road conditions.

Are there any examples of those agencies going to encryption?

 

[Paysonscanner]

Are there any examples of those agencies going to encryption?

Nope! I included them in a broad description of how scanners are used in rural areas. Orange County has encrypted fire communications and that would be devastating in rural areas. Search and rescue communications is one thing I didn't mention, which is done on law enforcement frequencies. SAR comms also add to being able to keep track of weather, road conditions, etc.

 

[KK4JUG]

Some Canadian cities use Twitter to inform the media and the public, in real time, of major incidents like major fires, crime alerts, missing children etc. I've always used my scanners to stay AWAY from fires, crimes, etc., for my own personal safety. In my area it is very useful to know when it not safe to go outside.

A lot of folks in this country use Twitter also. There are some of us who don't use social media. When Facebook first got off the ground, I jumped in. My avatar was a picture of me with the grandkids. Less than a week later, I got a friend request from "Kandi," accompanied by a picture of a gorgeous female. I may not be the brightest light in the harbor but I ignored it because I don't know a "Kandi" and I was pretty sure she was some hairy-legged man who made his living as a con artist. I still have the account but I haven't signed on if 5 or 6 years. If cities want to use social media, that's fine but it can't be the only method of interacting with the public.

As noted earlier, there are communities who don't have easy access to the Internet at all, let alone social media. They shouldn't be ignored. If it comes down to listening to the local unencrypted LE agencies on a scanner, so be it.