Did I just have an "AH-HA!" moment?

[AerialEars]

I've spent thousands of dollars buying radios, installing antennas and enjoying this hobby since I was 16 (I'm almost 49 now). After some reading this afternoon, I feel that I may be participating in killing it.

I provide an audio feed of the county I live in. The light came on when I read this article.

Why am I providing a feed (basically for free) for others to enjoy who have invested NOTHING into the hobby? And now because of this easy availability on all sorts of mobile devices that I've provided, what I'm doing MAY be one reason agencies are encrypting, thereby destroying my lifelong hobby.

I'm seriously thinking of pulling the plug on my feed. I know, there's the argument that they'd have encrypted anyway. But my county hasn't yet. And maybe if I don't participate in making their traffic widely available, and if no one else steps in and provides a feed, it will give them one less reason to do so.

And if they do anyway, at least I'll know I won't have contributed to the death of my hobby.

What do you think?

Greg

 

[yamaha769]

Well I'm sure that most people who read the boards are providing a feed anyways. I Know the numbers are very lopsided when you compare feed providers against users! As for going encrypted if the county has the money I am sure they already would have implemented it. So all in all I agree with you and disagree at the same time.

 

[bryan_herbert]

This thread should be moved to the streaming audio section.

ive been debating the same thing the last few years. I provided one of the first streams in Los Angeles back in the late 90s and when 2000 rolled around it went full time and stayed up until SBN came along and provided me bandwidth to support my listeners. Then around 2007 I started having a moral debate when I started making friends in the departments I was streaming. It literally became a virtual game of tug of war. LAFD and most police departments hated it so I didn't stream them though thats what the listeners demanded, while firefighters and emergency management agencies enjoyed it especially when their crews were on strike teams half way across the state. I was receiving just as much hate mail as I was thank yous, here I was dedicating my scanner and my computer and my bandwidth and not charging and people were making demands as if they had rights to control my rig and then im getting threats from agencies and in some cases thank yous from other people in those same agencies. It was a giant headache and now departments want to encrypt so the bad guys and law abiding scanner owners cant listen in.

 

[N8IAA]

Greg, I feel your pain. I have given long thought to providing a feed. I may not have spent that much money in radios and antennas, but, enjoy the hobby of listening. I, too, have friends in PS who are hams, scannerheads, and love radio. I have had a lot of time on my hands for the last three years to play radio. I have listened to radio systems in my county and an adjacent county go on the air encrypted because of "officer safety". They lost the extra eyes and ears of the local citizens. Late last night, I was copying the hunt for a killer and accomplices in a neighboring county. I have TGID's that I don't share here on RR because of "officer safety". I truly despise (probably wrong spelling) the news stations in metro ATL shamelessly begging you to be their unpaid reporters and cameramen. There is a time when we need to stand for what we each believe to be appropriate and right. I don't know what service you feed, and yes my android equipt phone has the free scanner app downloaded on it. It is nice to hear somewhere halfway around the world what goes on. Being responsible begins with what common sense tells you what is right and what is wrong.
I am, and always will be, curious as to what happens around me and why it happens. Doesn't mean I need to share it with everyone who logs onto a feed.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Larry

<OK, maybe a nickles worth>

 

[RickS31]

While I understand all of the above anti-feed arguments, there is, IMHO, an upside as well. I recently got back into the hobby by listening in to my local county on-line. By getting back in, I had to buy a new scanner with digital trunking. New antennas, programming cables, etc. So, I'm not freeloading any longer but now supporting the hobby we all know and love.

I'm hoping more "freeloaders" join us and keep the technology rolling along.

Rick

 

[SCPD]

AerialEars, I'm just like you -- 50 years old and been into public service monitoring since I was age nine, starting out with an off brand AM/FM/PSB multiband portable radio, then moving up to a Realistic Patrolman 4 and finally getting a Regency ACT-R-106 10 channel crystal-controlled mobile/base scanner when I was 15. I, likewise, have spent thousands of dollars over the years on scanners -- Bearcats, Regencys, Radio Shacks -- and I still own a Radio Shack PRO-97 analog triple trunking scanner.

Despite owning a scanner, I do find myself using the Orange County (CA) live feed rather than my scanner. If I'm sitting in front of my computer for a long period, it's just easier to listen through my computer. Plus, the feed provider uses a digital trunking scanner, so he can pick up other things that my analog scanner can't, such as the RED channel crime broadcasts and pursuits. Plus, he's hooked up to an external antenna, so he streams a lot more than I could ever pick up off my stock rubber duck.

Also, if Orange County fire units head south to San Diego or east to the Inland Empire on a mutual aid, RR has working incident feeds so I can listen to the OC units out of county, something I'm not able to do from my handheld.

So, if I haven't said it before, THANK YOU to all the feed providers. I've never complained about any feed nor will I. You guys provide a vital public service as far as I am concerned.

Officer safety didn't seem to be an issue until all the smart phone apps came out, letting the bad guys (and us) listen off a small portable device. But before smart phones, the criminals could still drop into their local Radio Shack and get a larger, yet still portable, device that would allow them to listen to the cops, so what's the difference?

If your feed has a good following, keep it up. My guess is most of your listeners aren't part of the criminal element, even if they are too cheap to buy their own scanner.

And if you're worried about endangering officers' lives, then lock out certain channels such as car-to-car, survelliance, SWAT, etc. and just run a dispatch channel. Believe me, if a guy's robbing a liquor store he already knows the cops are on the way, smart phone or not. And don't forget that most modern departments use MDTs to dispatch their most sensitive calls, such as burglaries in progress, that would never be broadcast through your stream anyway. And officers in the field all talk to each other via cell phone, so the public never hears the really juicy stuff.

While I'm all for officer safety, I think this smart phone brouhaha has been blown a wee bit out of proportion by the media.

Dave
KA6TJF

 

[JoeyC]

And don't forget that most modern departments use MDTs to dispatch their most sensitive calls, such as burglaries in progress, that would never be broadcast through your stream anyway

Huh? Stuff dispatched by MDT/C is usually the mundane and routine calls in addition to those deemed sensitive. High priority calls - those in progress, including burglaries are almost always dispatched over the radio. Just listen to LAPD. When was the last time you heard a barking dog or blocked driveway call dispatched over the radio?

 

[JoeyC]

Greg, the point of the article is that those in positions to make the (encryption) decisions, have noticed. I must agree with you about contributing to the eventual demise of our hobby.

 

[SCPD]

Huh? Stuff dispatched by MDT/C is usually the mundane and routine calls in addition to those deemed sensitive. High priority calls - those in progress, including burglaries are almost always dispatched over the radio. Just listen to LAPD. When was the last time you heard a barking dog or blocked driveway call dispatched over the radio?

Look at other posts, especially those about encryption, and you'll see lots of comments along the lines of, "we don't hear two-thirds of the actual calls that are dispatched, because they are put out over MDTs." I don't listen to LAPD anymore, ever since they gave up putting out "hotshot" calls on Tac 1 (154.83 MHz), but I rarely heard any "Code 30 silent" calls, but lots of "Code 30 ringer" calls, because no one ever took ringing burglar alarms seriously. The point I made still stands. Most of the sensitive stuff that police departments broadcast is done over MDTs. Most of the "get your ass out there right now" stuff like armed robberies in progress are put out over the open airwaves, because the robbers know the cops are already on their way. I'm just trying to tell the guy in Gerogia to not worry about putting officers in jeopardy, because most of the stuff that might put an officer in jeopardy is handled over MDTs and cell phones. The cops aren't that stupid.

And let's say the guy in Georgia does take his stream down. Do you really think that will stop his local police from going digital once this depression ends and they have the money to do so? So live it up and stream as long as you can stream. The cops here in Orange County (CA) went encrypted almost 10 years ago, but doesn't stop a nice gent from running a stream that brodcasts OC Fire, Lifeguards, and the RED channel mentioned in my previous post.

Finally, and I held this out of my original post, you can blame the very people who run this Website for causing some of the hysteria among police officials across the country. I seem to recall several months ago Radio Reference announcing that they intorduced a new app that would allow people to listen to the RR streams over smart phones.

So why don't we all take a deep breath, and accept the fact that eventually, all police departments across the country will be encrypted, and that the only thing we'll be able to listen to is fire, lifeguards on three coasts and the Great Lakes, amusement parks, taxi companies, etc. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what we peons do or don't do, the government is going to go ahead and do whatever the hell it wants.

Dave
KA6TJF

 

[roadranger]

not to worry...

This article is in Virginia, where they frown on scanners and radar detectors anyway. That's just the way things are there. I have breifly wrestled with the same streaming morals for Athens-Clarke. "Is there a need" was a recent post of mine. No one seemes interested in Athens-Clarke being streamed, so I dropped the Idea. I wanted to stream it for my pleasure as long as I was away on the big truck. Thank you for streaming our county, Greg. I have used it a few times, but I still use the radios while I am at home. Keep it up, if you like. David, K4ARX.

 

[Metrofire31]

Streaming

After reading the posts above, I tend to agree with you folks about making it easy for those without scanners.The one exception I would point out is distance monitoring. There probably should be a way to force people to invest in our hobby one way or the other. For example, making all the streaming audio a subscription service and price it so that it forces a person to evaluate whether they want to listen off the internet or purchase their own scanner could be worth considering. There certainly is precedent for internet-based subscriptions.

 

[MeddleMan]

I disagree...

After reading the posts above, I tend to agree with you folks about making it easy for those without scanners.The one exception I would point out is distance monitoring. There probably should be a way to force people to invest in our hobby one way or the other. For example, making all the streaming audio a subscription service and price it so that it forces a person to evaluate whether they want to listen off the internet or purchase their own scanner could be worth considering. There certainly is precedent for internet-based subscriptions.

...while it might seem to be a good idea, at first to stream from any or all areas, it might be an issue a little like piracy and music or movies. Not that any of these agencies stand a chance of loosing money by us "copying" their product, thus stealing from the Government, but you would join the "app." companies in pirating and pillaging from the scanner manufaturers. Monies lost due to the ease of streaming information via any other method thinkable. This kind of service to the public takes mony out of the hands of your favorite scanner manufacutere. If you want others to pay to access or force people to enjoy our hobbie, good luck. How will you beat a free app that is provided by a payphone service, anyway?

 

[tladd08]

When was the last time

When was the last time anyone read any news about someone being charged with using a radio in the commission of a criminal act? I can't recall ever reading that. Why isn't this prosecuted more? It would certainly benefit LEOs if the penalties for this were severe. If the threshold for the burden of proof for OUI in a parked car is whether or not the keys are in the ignition, the scanner wouldn't even have to be on. It would just have to be on the suspect when apprehended and programmed with the police frequencies

Would there be anything to fear for those of us who are law-abiding and not conspiracy theorists?

 

[CapStar362]

ladd, 3 1/2 years ago, i got caught with a scanner and it caught me a felony while being accused of throwing a rock at some guys car. i fought off the charge and won, but it temporarily earned me a felony

 

[CalebATC]

It's all up to you. Why don't you email the PD and ask them what they think? Ask them if it bothers them of you having it up. See what they say, if they have hesitation, remove it. It's your call!

 

[N8IAA]

Encryption happens because, the business that sells the radios makes a ton of money off of the agency that they dupe into buying it. Case in point: Jackson County going Mototrbo, trunked and encrypted. I was recently talking to a detective with my county pd. He wishes that they didn't encrypt everything. They really appreciated the help they got from citizens that listen to scanners or online feeds before they went digital. Online feeds are not contributing to lack of sales. The economy is certainly not helping out with that. But, I sure do see a lot of people selling their top of the line Unidens to get a vanilla scanner/gps unit:lol: I don't have a problem listening to area pd's, so's and fire. I just don't always see a need to list everything I monitor and hear.
As long as you, yourself, feels comfortable in feeding your local public servants, do it. It is a personal thing. And, hey, it gets you a premium membership to this great radio site
Larry

 

[lucas2121]

I think it is a big plus for encryption, especially when the PS agency knows their radio traffic is being streamed.
Criminals don't really know how to use a scanner but they do know how to use the internet.
Read this newsletter by the way.

http://www.icomamerica.com/en/media_events/news/ianews/pdf/iaNews_0912.pdf

 

[N8IAA]

I think it is a big plus for encryption, especially when the PS agency knows their radio traffic is being streamed.
Criminals don't really know how to use a scanner but they do know how to use the internet.
Read this newsletter by the way.

http://www.icomamerica.com/en/media_events/news/ianews/pdf/iaNews_0912.pdf

Not to hijack this from the OP, but, Secure, encrypted TAC TGID's can be programmed into individual radios on a system. No need to encrypt everything. Period. Not just my point of view. No matter what is streamed, common everyday traffic stops, responding to domestics, the PD/SO assisting the FD in traffic control at wrecks, there is still the no harm done in listening. A couple of weeks ago, a little girl went missing in my area, didn't find out until 3 hours later when the PD left a message on all the answering machines in the immediate area. Lots of neighbors and myself searched for this young lady who eventually walked out of the woods three doors down from her residence. Just saying........there is nothing wrong with streaming innocuous everyday comms.
Larry

 

[MTS2000des]

I think it is a big plus for encryption, especially when the PS agency knows their radio traffic is being streamed.
Criminals don't really know how to use a scanner but they do know how to use the internet.
Read this newsletter by the way.

http://www.icomamerica.com/en/media_events/news/ianews/pdf/iaNews_0912.pdf

Why isn't Icom offering there P25 radios I wonder? Could it be that they suck? The Icom IC-F80 and F70 I had were total complete POS'es, with no way to uplift the firmware and DSP without going through a major production.

yeah, I want want to entrust my agencies' mission critical communications to some regurgitated SMR crap that doesn't meet Federal standards for public safety use, doesn't even meet FIPS 140 level 1 for encryption, but I can hear it now coming from some podunk county official in this state :

"it's cheap and it's digital so it's like them thar radios in Jackson county cause them scannars can't pick it up so no one from them big atlanta TV stations can show up when we beat up the next tar baby on the traffic stops we do"

In all seriousness, in conversation with a local Metro Atlanta public safety communications official who shall remain anonymous, the subject of streaming audio of public safety radio came up when I was working a special event this past Labor day weekend. And it was said that more and more encryption (specifically ADP available cheaply on Astro 25 systems) is becoming an option due to the mere perception that an offender or co-conspirator could use scanner feed audio to facilitate an offense.

When I questioned how many actual incidences of devices confiscated (I-phones, Blackberries, even scanner radios themselves) tuned to a feed by that agency during a raid or any type of in progress or even after the fact offense, NOT ONE came to this individuals memory. NOT A SINGLE ONE.

so they key here is PERCEPTION. The more one perceives a threat, the more the security theater game can be played by vendors to upsell services and products. Can't blame them can you? No different then walking into a McDonald's and saying "I'm hungry" and they offer to upsize your meal. That is a salespersons job.

But I've said it before, only a matter of time before encryption becomes integrated as part of the standard. Look for it in phase P25 phase II.