DMR Vs. YSF Vs. D-Star Vs. P25 Vs. NXDN

[JASII]

I am currently using DMR. The learning curve is still going up. I like DMR, but I also want to learn a bit more about the other modes. This is what I am trying to determine right now:

-Yaesu System Fusion: My understanding is that although the programming is similar to APCO P-25, you don't need a NAC code. I also am aware that repeaters are generally capable of mixed-mode meaning they will pass analog and/or YSF modulation. It looks like the YSF repeaters I have seen usually need a PL/DPL for the analog side. Am I correct in assuming that all you need to access the YSF side is the proper frequencies programmed in and transmit in the YSF mode?

With regards to networking and YSF rooms. If a YSF repeater is connected to a "room", I assume everybody tuned to that YSF frequency hears activity on that "room", correct? correct? I know with DMR you can select a specific talkgroup and you won't hear other activity on the repeater, so I suspect YSF is very different in this regard.

I have a digital hot-spot and I suspect that a radio, through a hot-spot that is YSF capable, can select whatever "room" you want, correct? I also suspect that YSF repeaters that are linked to that "room" will hear the traffic, correct? Are most YSF repeaters connected to a single "room" or are some connected to more than one "room" at a time?
Is there any way to monitor a particular YSF repeater and ONLY here traffic from a specific room or is it an all or nothing situation with YSF?

I have also heard that a number of places got the YSF repeaters because of the attractive pricing, but are actually used mainly in the analog mode? Is that an accurate statement or does it vary from place to place?

-Icom D-Star: I gather that your call sign needs to be registered and I have made application for that. It looks like programming for Icom D-Star is much different than DMR or YSF.

With regards to D-Star and reflectors, I assume that if the repeater you are tuned to is connected to specific reflector, all local users, tuned to that D-Star repeater, hear any traffic on that reflector over that repeater. Do some D-Star repeaters connect to more than one reflector at a time? Are there some D-Star repeaters that are completely stand alone and aren't connected to any other repeaters at all?

I have heard and read that the audio quality of D-Star is generally inferior to other digital modes. Is that true or is newer equipment sounding more natural?

What about using a hot-spot on D-Star? I assume that you select reflectors using those and it doesn't matter what repeaters are carrying that particular reflector?

Are any D-Star repeaters also analog or are they excursively D-Star?

-APCO P-25: I had some XTS5000s and an APX7000 in the past. The P25 repeater I used wasn't linked to anything. Similar to the above questions, are their many linked amateur P25 repeaters now? Is hot-spot use to access P25 common? I have never heard about rooms or reflectors on P25, but I have heard about talkgroups. Do most P25 amateur repeaters make use of multiple talkgroups? I assume to Motorola Quantar is the common P25 repeater. Are most configured to work mixed-mode, both analog and P25?

-NXDN: I have used NXDN for work, but never on amateur radio. Again, are there rooms, reflector or talkgroups used on NXDN? If a particular talkgroup is in use, and carried on a NXDN repeater, I assume that repeater can't be used for anything else at that moment, since there aren't dual time slots. I assume that NXDN repeaters carry traffic from multiple talkgroups. I also assume that you can program a NXDN radio and monitor for just a single, specific talkgroup. What about hot-spot use? I assume that you use a NXDN radio, connect to the hot-spot and then select a specific talk-group?

 

[prcguy]

I have DMR, D-star, Fusion and P25 but I'm not an expert on any of them. I see DMR having an advantage with two time slots where a repeater can have two separate conversations going on simultaneously. One conversation can be the local repeater and the other can be a connection to a distant system. With D-star and Fusion everybody on the repeater will be affected if you connect to a distant system and with DMR not so much. In my experience you will hear more differences between specific radios operating in the same mode as you will between the different formats.

With DMR and some of the cheap popular radios you have premade code plugs available on the Internet that make programming easy. Otherwise its an effort to program manually. For D-star I also use premade repeater lists and import into my radios. For Fusion you just select the frequency then digital mode, then play with Wires-X if the repeater has that feature.

Linking to distant systems is one of the lures of DMR, D-star and Fusion. There are very few P25 repeaters where I live and none are connected to other systems. I think you will find that to be typical throughout the country.

I also have a Fusion repeater and a P25 repeater at my house. Right now they are mixed mode at my low site location but if and when they get on a mountain top they will be digital only as mixed mode can cause all kinds of hate and discontent between users.

 

[vagrant]

I am currently using DMR. The learning curve is still going up. I like DMR, but I also want to learn a bit more about the other modes. This is what I am trying to determine right now:

-Yaesu System Fusion: My understanding is that although the programming is similar to APCO P-25, you don't need a NAC code. I also am aware that repeaters are generally capable of mixed-mode meaning they will pass analog and/or YSF modulation. It looks like the YSF repeaters I have seen usually need a PL/DPL for the analog side. Am I correct in assuming that all you need to access the YSF side is the proper frequencies programmed in and transmit in the YSF mode?

Most often yes, it is straightforward.

With regards to networking and YSF rooms. If a YSF repeater is connected to a "room", I assume everybody tuned to that YSF frequency hears activity on that "room", correct? correct? I know with DMR you can select a specific talkgroup and you won't hear other activity on the repeater, so I suspect YSF is very different in this regard.

Yes, you are correct.

I have a digital hot-spot and I suspect that a radio, through a hot-spot that is YSF capable, can select whatever "room" you want, correct? I also suspect that YSF repeaters that are linked to that "room" will hear the traffic, correct? Are most YSF repeaters connected to a single "room" or are some connected to more than one "room" at a time?
Is there any way to monitor a particular YSF repeater and ONLY here traffic from a specific room or is it an all or nothing situation with YSF?

1. Yes - Whatever comes up on that reflect list via the hotspot
2. Single room. They could be connected to more using two hotspots, but that could be troublesome when both hotspots TX. It would be odd to do that.
3. With a Yaesu repeater, if you connect to that room all you will hear is from that room...unless someone links in another repeater, or pushes hotspot traffic one way or another. One or more different Yaesu repeater owners on Wires-X can steer their repeaters, or allow others to do so, to a third repeater on Wires-X. Using a hotspot, a YSF repeater can be steered to whatever is on the hotspot list as well.

I have also heard that a number of places got the YSF repeaters because of the attractive pricing, but are actually used mainly in the analog mode? Is that an accurate statement or does it vary from place to place?

I am unable to speak for all YSF repeater owners, but in my area a club replaced old GE Master II repeaters with Fusion repeaters mostly for analog. As prcguy noted, keeping them apart is typically better than not. Another owner uses AMS for his repeater. Myself and another YSF owner have ours dedicated to C4FM/digital only. There are plenty of analog repeaters around here going unused that there is really no need for AMS.

-Icom D-Star: I gather that your call sign needs to be registered and I have made application for that. It looks like programming for Icom D-Star is much different than DMR or YSF.

Indeed, each are quite different and one needs to register their Wires-X capable radio with Yaesu as well in order to get assigned a Wires-X node number. (An HRI-200 device and an extra radio is no longer needed.

With regards to D-Star and reflectors, I assume that if the repeater you are tuned to is connected to specific reflector, all local users, tuned to that D-Star repeater, hear any traffic on that reflector over that repeater. Do some D-Star repeaters connect to more than one reflector at a time? Are there some D-Star repeaters that are completely stand alone and aren't connected to any other repeaters at all?

A D-Star repeater could be connected to more than one reflector, but again that would be odd. Yes, there are stand-alone D-Star repeaters, as well as some not connected to the Internet too.

I have heard and read that the audio quality of D-Star is generally inferior to other digital modes. Is that true or is newer equipment sounding more natural?

Part of this audio issue is the amount of bandwidth, the codec and the radio being used. The TX audio from my Kenwood D74A sounds better than my Icom 31A+, but the Kenwood has an equalizer one can adjust.

What about using a hot-spot on D-Star? I assume that you select reflectors using those and it doesn't matter what repeaters are carrying that particular reflector?

I believe so, but I have not actually tested this. Yes, I have D-Star radios, but I've often used YSF or sometimes DMR.

Are any D-Star repeaters also analog or are they excursively D-Star?

Actually, I do not know the answer to this one. I have only used DV mode for conversations on D-Star repeaters. I will need to test.

-APCO P-25: I had some XTS5000s and an APX7000 in the past. The P25 repeater I used wasn't linked to anything. Similar to the above questions, are their many linked amateur P25 repeaters now? Is hot-spot use to access P25 common? I have never heard about rooms or reflectors on P25, but I have heard about talkgroups. Do most P25 amateur repeaters make use of multiple talkgroups? I assume to Motorola Quantar is the common P25 repeater. Are most configured to work mixed-mode, both analog and P25?

Here in central California there are linked P25 repeaters, including the south S.F. bay area along the coast. There is a mixed mode P25/analog repeater locally that is stand-alone and we like it like that. Operators know to tone out the digital via squelch and P25 operators configure their radios to listen to the analog side as well so as not to step on someone. There are times when operators play together, but it is a low level repeater with not much use and typically used for local chatter. (We are healthy with repeaters here in central California). Some P25 repeaters are configured for multiple talkgroups, but much depends on Internet access at the site. I could not say about "most", I just do not know the overall setup for the U.S. or the world. As to the Motorola Quantar, that is quite often used, but as to mixed mode or P25 or analog only, I cannot say which one is most. Seriously, who would know that information? That would take a bit of research to each repeater owner.

-NXDN: I have used NXDN for work, but never on amateur radio. Again, are there rooms, reflector or talkgroups used on NXDN? If a particular talkgroup is in use, and carried on a NXDN repeater, I assume that repeater can't be used for anything else at that moment, since there aren't dual time slots. I assume that NXDN repeaters carry traffic from multiple talkgroups. I also assume that you can program a NXDN radio and monitor for just a single, specific talkgroup. What about hot-spot use? I assume that you use a NXDN radio, connect to the hot-spot and then select a specific talk-group?

I am unfamiliar with NXDN and Amateur use.

By the way: Thank you for doing some initial research, allowing most of my replies as a "Yes" in confirmation. (Do not infer any sarcasm here, it is genuine) A forum is great for clarification and confirmation by those that have experience, although the responses can be wrong Figuring out the various digital modes is a bit much to take on all at once. Your thread may prove helpful for those stumbling in for years to come.

 

[w2xq]

I am currently using DMR. The learning curve is still going up. I like DMR, but I also want to learn a bit more about the other modes. This is what I am trying to determine right now.

What hotspot did you finally buy?

I suggest you get onto TG 31088. Details are on the Colorado Digital Multiprotocol System website. The gang there is the go-to for all things digital and there are a number of people on the TG during most days and evenings.

I *strongly* recommend the Friday evening tech net at 1930 Mountain (2030 Central, 2130 Eastern). W0RMT is usually net control; he--Bud--runs a very efficient net. You'll have an opportunity to ask questions in part 2 of the net.

 

[MLee3008]

I'm still trying to figure out GMRS and analog amateur, but the digital arena also sounds interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this to those of us who have limited/no experience.

 

[JASII]

What hotspot did you finally buy?...

I have a Pi-Star device now.

 

[wrath]

For those wishing to bone up on DMR & Dstar there are two de ent books available in digital format from Amazon (kindle format) they are pretty inexpensive and the equivalent to ham radio digital for dummies taking you through how to use the modes and program some of the more common radios .they also have one on open spot hot spot use .

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[regression]

For those wishing to bone up on DMR & Dstar there are two de ent books available in digital format from Amazon (kindle format) they are pretty inexpensive and the equivalent to ham radio digital for dummies taking you through how to use the modes and program some of the more common radios .they also have one on open spot hot spot use .

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Can you provide a link to the books?


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[wrath]

I have tried Amazon isn't cooperating ,just do a search for DMR kindle books or ham radio ( just a warning on the ham radio they have every A.R.R.L book ,so you will be swimming in books).

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[w2xq]

I have tried Amazon isn't cooperating ,just do a search for DMR kindle books or ham radio.

Wrath, DMR "stuff" is changing so quickly that IMHO books are out of date before the ink is dry. I *strongly* recommend Amateur radio notes by KE0FHS as *the* must read for those exploring the digital modes. Supplementing that, I have links to digital -- mostly DMR -- information on my website. HTH.