EMP immunity

[AK9R]

@AB4BF, are you angry at me for something I said. Or, are you angry that EMPs will take out transformers?

 

[AB4BF]

@AB4BF, are you angry at me for something I said. Or, are you angry that EMPs will take out transformers?

I am not angry at you!

I am angry that there are people this day and age that want a nuclear war with Russia or Ukraine or anyone and that we even have to think about protecting our electronic/electrical devices from a possible EMP pulse. That is just STUPID!

 

[ladn]

....Well, that's not my style... I have to leave here with something said.

I'll add my favorite "what if..nuclear war" book to the mix, Alas Babylon by Pat Frank. The book was written in the Cold War era (1959) and deals with primarily the aftermath of a nuclear first strike by the USSR and its effect on a small town in Florida. I first read it in high school and it remains one of my favorite reads. Yes, the politics and technology are somewhat dated by today's standards, but the story line is still compelling.

 

[k7ng]

Add to the reading list, "One Second After" by William Forstchen. Another 'what if' book, which also has an afterword describing EMP. I personally like Ms. Lauri's description a little better.

EMP awareness shouldn't be discounted as preparation for something you wouldn't survive anyway. Haven't most of us here heard of the 'Carrington Event' ? There have been other lesser events, just not in the last couple generations. Things could get real bad without nuclear help...

 

[trentbob]

I think you all are missing something about the 1972 Dodge Dart with Kettering (points) ignition.

A Kettering ignition depends on a coil, i.e. a transformer. When the points open, the field in the coil (transformer) collapses which generates a high enough voltage to jump the gap in the spark plug which ignites the fuel-air mixture, and so forth. If an EMP takes out transformers, as Miss Lauri suggests, then the coil in your '72 Dart will be toast.

Good point, essentially nothing would operate, the movie The Day After Lauri mentioned as old as it is, demonstrated that, none of the cars would start.

I am not angry at you!

I am angry that there are people this day and age that want a nuclear war with Russia or Ukraine or anyone and that we even have to think about protecting our electronic/electrical devices from a possible EMP pulse. That is just STUPID!

I couldn't agree with you more, setting politics aside... to hear some politicians or TV pundits speak about NATO enforcing no-fly zones over Ukraine or having USA and NATO troops become involved in this entanglement scares the bejeebies out of me. As I had mentioned before, Russian nuclear deterrent forces are on the highest alert which is tantamount to SAC being on Defcon 1. It truly is insanity that we are in a position we could be nuked.

I'll add my favorite "what if..nuclear war" book to the mix, Alas Babylon by Pat Frank. The book was written in the Cold War era (1959) and deals with primarily the aftermath of a nuclear first strike by the USSR and its effect on a small town in Florida. I first read it in high school and it remains one of my favorite reads. Yes, the politics and technology are somewhat dated by today's standards, but the story line is still compelling.

That is an excellent choice Rodger. It made me think right away of "On The Beach" also a compelling storyline that was made into a movie with Gregory Peck, Ava Gardner and Fred Astaire.

 

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

.


K7NG.........EMP awareness shouldn't be discounted as preparation for something you wouldn't survive anyway. Haven't most of us here heard of the 'Carrington Event' ? There have been other lesser events, just not in the last couple generations.

I agree, --there are plenty of lesser boogey-men hiding out there !

A CME -like the ones of 1859 and 1921- are awesome (ie: 'distructive) events- but I believe they are semi manageable. But a thermonuclear war isn't ----even if you do survive the blasts.

The after-effects, for me- are best said by this line from Dr. Strangelove- *

"But look here doctor, wouldn't this nucleus of survivors be so grief-stricken and anguished that they'd, well, envy the dead and not want to go on living?"

Which about sums this up for me, - Prepare for a CME- if you want, or can.
.....Like disconnect your antennas when not in use, unplug electronic devices-, use surge protectors and maybe keep an ear out to the space weather predictions. But let the nuclear events take care of themselves... our feeble pre'pr attempts won't matter beans if they occur.

______________________________________


Kind'a of a side note- in my circle it was rumored that the Soviet aircraft were "harden'd" against an EMP's to keep them flying after the 'blasts'--- their elite class knew these crews would have been fatally irradiated -and all would soon be suffering radiation sickness. The Soviets planned on these crews completing their missions before they became too sick to fly and crash.
(think of those valiant doomed firemen that rushed to the Chernobyl disaster)

Crazy-ness !


Lauri



___________________________________________________

* Beneath its wonderfully sarcastic, facetious tone this movie has some powerful messages. I would have loved to ask my grandfather if they received the 'Go Code' what they would have done- though it would have been very inappropriate of some one like me to ask.



.

 

[MUTNAV]

If you were lucky enough to have a 72 Dart with points and no electronics you would have plenty of gas, just use your rubber hose on any other intact car, the big question would be, how long are YOU going to last with radiation poisoning

I've always been interested in the whole tube radio and old car ideas for EMP protection.

I have to object to the old car and tube radio idea, unless they are checked in an EMP simulator, it could in fact be worse to have tube radios and old cars. Remember the tube radios tend to have more coils in them, and old cars with ignition coils (designed to take a 12 Volt source and generate 15,000 volts for sparks, might have an issue when 10,000 volts Sq.meter is imposed over the coil.

I'd have to assume that other factors would quickly become every-ones issues anyway, for example; the supply of medicines, food, water, security. etc...

The "Iffy" portion of EMP is if the effects in real life are different than projected. like what happens to a huge EMP if there is 100% overhead cloud cover over an entire region of the country (one big set of sheet lightning in the clouds?), or only a portion of the country is targeted (West coast, East coast, Mid Atlantic, etc...)

Thanks
Joel

 

[trentbob]

.


K7NG.........EMP awareness shouldn't be discounted as preparation for something you wouldn't survive anyway. Haven't most of us here heard of the 'Carrington Event' ? There have been other lesser events, just not in the last couple generations.

I agree, --there are plenty of lesser boogey-men hiding out there !

A CME -like the ones of 1859 and 1921- are awesome (ie: 'distructive) events- but I believe they are semi manageable. But a thermonuclear war isn't ----even if you do survive the blasts.

The after-effects, for me- are best said by this line from Dr. Strangelove- *

"But look here doctor, wouldn't this nucleus of survivors be so grief-stricken and anguished that they'd, well, envy the dead and not want to go on living?"

Which about sums this up for me, - Prepare for a CME- if you want, or can.
.....Like disconnect your antennas when not in use, unplug electronic devices-, use surge protectors and maybe keep an ear out to the space weather predictions. But let the nuclear events take care of themselves... our feeble pre'pr attempts won't matter beans if they occur.

______________________________________


Kind'a of a side note- in my circle it was rumored that the Soviet aircraft were "harden'd" against an EMP's to keep them flying after the 'blasts'--- their elite class knew these crews would have been fatally irradiated -and all would soon be suffering radiation sickness. The Soviets planned on these crews completing their missions before they became too sick to fly and crash.
(think of those valiant doomed firemen that rushed to the Chernobyl disaster)

Crazy-ness !


Lauri



___________________________________________________

* Beneath its wonderfully sarcastic, facetious tone this movie has some powerful messages. I would have loved to ask my grandfather if they received the 'Go Code' what they would have done- though it would have been very inappropriate of some one like me to ask.



.

Now I get the reference to Doctor Strangelove... I didn't really take it seriously secondary to the sarcasm. I'm going to take another look at that.

Regarding the hardening of Soviet planes from EMPs in the early stages of the nuclear age, see post number 4 where I address the fact that the Soviets used tubes in their radios and other electronics in an attempt to harden them. It's been a while since I've discussed that but as it turns out it may have just been that the Soviets did not have the technology, wherewithal or access to transistors/chips that the west did at first... Very interesting!

 

[GlobalNorth]

A 250 Mt device does not currently exist. "Tsar Bomba" - the Khrushchev PR nuclear device was limited at 50 Mt and the physical effects were felt hundreds of miles away.

If someone constructed such a device and detonated it at the edge of the atmosphere, the physical effects would be very likely more devastating than the electronic effects.

 

[trentbob]

I've always been interested in the whole tube radio and old car ideas for EMP protection.

I have to object to the old car and tube radio idea, unless they are checked in an EMP simulator, it could in fact be worse to have tube radios and old cars. Remember the tube radios tend to have more coils in them, and old cars with ignition coils (designed to take a 12 Volt source and generate 15,000 volts for sparks, might have an issue when 10,000 volts Sq.meter is imposed over the coil.

I'd have to assume that other factors would quickly become every-ones issues anyway, for example; the supply of medicines, food, water, security. etc...

The "Iffy" portion of EMP is if the effects in real life are different than projected. like what happens to a huge EMP if there is 100% overhead cloud cover over an entire region of the country (one big set of sheet lightning in the clouds?), or only a portion of the country is targeted (West coast, East coast, Mid Atlantic, etc...)

Thanks
Joel

Hi Joel... as Lauri and AK9R pointed out all transformers would be out of commission, I'm convinced now, no matter how old the car is, it's not going to run LOL.

 

[GlobalNorth]

If one "must" have a vehicle after a one to three months long thermonuclear war [yes, that is what would happen according to what ever SIOP, OpPlan, etc. is in place], one should buy a 1970s era Dodge Diesel powered truck. They are as slow as a tractor, but the mechanical fuel injection will work. Sadly, they were not popular back in the day, not many were made, and most of the engines were ripped out for farm pumps and other motive forms of work.

 

[MUTNAV]

Hi Joel... as Lauri and AK9R pointed out all transformers would be out of commission, I'm convinced now, no matter how old the car is, it's not going to run LOL.

When they actually tested 1998 cars, only two out of ten had non-recoverable (without extensive repair) damage. Some kept running fine, some had system interrupts, that jsut required a restart.

The PRC-77 (with a transistor final) survived a susceptibility test, while a PRC-25 (tube final) didn't.

Of course the tests could be flawed also. As in did it include the T3 pulse that lasts up to thousands of seconds?

Thanks
Joel

 

[GlobalNorth]

When they actually tested 1998 cars, only two out of ten had non-recoverable (without extensive repair) damage. Some kept running fine, some had system interrupts, that jsut required a restart.

The PRC-77 (with a transistor final) survived a susceptibility test, while a PRC-25 (tube final) didn't.

Of course the tests could be flawed also. As in did it include the T3 pulse that lasts up to thousands of seconds?

If the test was non-nuclear [it would have to be in the US] and based solely upon a proximal electrical discharge EMP, it isn't a valid testing approximation.

 

[MUTNAV]

This is a nice quick read...

EMP Effects on Vehicles - Futurescience.com

Electromagnetic Pulse and vehicles. The sparse evidence about how motor vehicles would react to a high-altitude nuclear EMP.

futurescience.com

Thanks, Joel

 

[MUTNAV]

If the test was non-nuclear [it would have to be in the US] and based solely upon a proximal electrical discharge EMP, it isn't a valid testing approximation.

I'm ok with the testing, you work with your limits and due your best.

Thanks
Joel

 

[n5ims]

So my 2 or so dozen UV5Rs sitting in drawers around my house for many years (and never even turned on) won't be of any use in the SHTF situation I purchased them to protect me from?

 

[mmckenna]

So my 2 or so dozen UV5Rs sitting in drawers around my house for many years (and never even turned on) won't be of any use in the SHTF situation I purchased them to protect me from?

Consider them sacrificial radios. If you cluster them around your good radios, maybe they'll block the pulse.

Huh, maybe we finally found a good use for CCR's, other than door stops and wheel chocks.

 

[GlobalNorth]

For those wanting to seriously consider the topic, I suggest these articles:

Effects of Nuclear Explosions on the Ionosphere - Nature

DURING October 30, 1961, some unusual phenomena occurred in the F-layer of the ionosphere over Lindau/Harz which may be ascribed to the explosion of the 50-megaton TNT nuclear bomb at 08 h. 33 m. 33 s. U.T. over Novaya Zemlya. Between the ½-hr. observations at 10 h. 00 m. and 10 h. 30 m. U.T...

www.nature.com

Ionospheric Effects of Nuclear Explosions - Nature

www.nature.com

They are 60 year old articles, but the work is there and modern semiconductor application can be inferred. I suggest going to a university library or a well established city library to find the articles for free reading.

 

[vagrant]

Long after we’re gone…cockroaches and baofengs.

 

[MUTNAV]

For those wanting to seriously consider the topic, I suggest these articles:

Effects of Nuclear Explosions on the Ionosphere - Nature

DURING October 30, 1961, some unusual phenomena occurred in the F-layer of the ionosphere over Lindau/Harz which may be ascribed to the explosion of the 50-megaton TNT nuclear bomb at 08 h. 33 m. 33 s. U.T. over Novaya Zemlya. Between the ½-hr. observations at 10 h. 00 m. and 10 h. 30 m. U.T...

www.nature.com

Ionospheric Effects of Nuclear Explosions - Nature

www.nature.com

They are 60 year old articles, but the work is there and modern semiconductor application can be inferred. I suggest going to a university library or a well established city library to find the articles for free reading.

I'd love to read them, they had some interesting ideas in the first ones abstract, but sadly no access... (maybe no cost access to things like this would be a better improvement to education than some of the other ideas that had been floated around).

Thanks
Joel