Freeband

[tekshogun]

Clear and simple, free banding or transmitting out of the band set by the FCC, is illegal. There is no gray area, only right and wrong.

10 Meter rigs were built for the amateur radio community. If a then type-accepted radio was built that could transmit across the 10-meter ham band and the 11 meter CB band then it was legal to use it for the ham band if you have a ham license proper for that spectrum and the CB spectrum can be used by anyone obviously and the power limits defined apply as well.

 

[wesct]

Clear and simple, free banding or transmitting out of the band set by the FCC, is illegal. There is no gray area, only right and wrong.

10 Meter rigs were built for the amateur radio community. If a then type-accepted radio was built that could transmit across the 10-meter ham band and the 11 meter CB band then it was legal to use it for the ham band if you have a ham license proper for that spectrum and the CB spectrum can be used by anyone obviously and the power limits defined apply as well.

If its a Ham Radio, its NOT a cb. Once modified, a HAM radio is not a LEGAL cb radio.

wesct

 

[tekshogun]

If its a Ham Radio, its NOT a cb. Once modified, a HAM radio is not a LEGAL cb radio.

wesct

That's true. That is why I said "If a then type-accepted radio was built...;" that is was built by someone and approved by the FCC.

I was not around 30 years ago so I know very little about the what types of non-specific use radios people often came across but what I do know is that there had to have been radios (not necessarily ham radios or CB radios) that were built by manufacturers and approved for use or were ignored/overlooked, etc, etc that could transmit on these different band allocations and people used those band allocations. The legitimate users had a license for using the ham frequencies and everyone else could openly use the CB radio or if you were operating during the time you needed to get a CB license, well, the legit users got one for those frequencies. In no way was I referring to illegal modification of a radio, I would have certainly used "modified" if that were the case.

I believe the same principle goes for commercial radios, such as Motorola's radios that can transmit on all kinds of frequencies, such as 136MHz to 174MHz. Well, if you are properly license, you can transmit on the ham frequencies. The only other open part of that frequency range are the MURS channels. Everything else you must be licensed/approved/authorized/whatever and these radios are built and FCC approved (or the old type-accepted).

 

[KI6ABZ]

CB used to be an amateur radio band, if I recall. So there never was a type-accepted radio for that band, since there's no such thing as a type-accepted amateur radio. Amateur radios are only approved by FCC Part 15, which is the same thing that covers all electronic devices that use radio frequencies: the transmitter may not cause harmful interference. Once CB became the user of that band, all the ARS license holders had to stop transmitting there.

It's illegal to transmit with a modified CB, even if you're not transmitting out of band. The instant you make any repair or modification to a CB radio (or ANY type-accepted radio), that radio has to be serviced by a certified technician who can certify that it's still compliant.

You CAN transmit with a CB radio IN the 10 meter band if you hold an amateur license, but once modified to transmit 10-meters, that radio is not legal to use on the Citizen's band ever again.

MURS and FRS are also unlicensed services, similar to Citizen's Band. They also have the same restrictions: you may only use a type-accepted radio, and the radios have power and antenna restrictions.

You cannot use a commercial radio transmit on any frequency you don't have a license for. You may NOT program a Motorola land-mobile radio to run on GMRS, FRS, or MURS. You can't use a modified radio anywhere, unless you're a ham using it on the amateur band.

The short version is that if you don't have a call sign, you should never open up the case on your transmitter, even to repair it. The instant you do, you break your type-acceptance. If you DO have a call sign, you should already know the rules you have to comply with.

And no, the cops aren't going to bust down your door for fooling with your CB unless you tick someone off: either causing a lot of RFI in the neighborhood or screwing with a license holder (I think the military uses < 27 Mhz, and the 29-50 Mhz band is used by a variety of services.) I HAVE talked to people who have been interrogated by the police regarding CB radios. One was a licensed ham who was harassed by an ignorant cop because the neighbors were complaining about RFI. The other had a "good buddy" who was sitting in his front yard, talking below 1 with a 1000 watt linear. BAD juju!!

There are also hams who jealously guard their airwaves; If you're frequently interfering with them, and you're in a fixed location, they'll gladly track you down and turn you in.

 

[tekshogun]

That's essentially what I was saying.

If you bought a Motorola radio that operates in the 403 to 470 range, you can program it for use on Amateur 440, GMRS, FRS (if you can set the power output low enough), and any other band that you are licensed for authorized for. Same goes for 136 to 174 Motorola radios. They can do MURS, Amateur, and anything else you are authorized for.

So if there is a radio that can do 27MHz up to 29MHz (11 meter to 10 meter) then you can operate on what ever you are authorized or licensed for. CB radio with the correct power output and amateur with a license.

 

[N_Jay]

That's essentially what I was saying.

If you bought a Motorola radio that operates in the 403 to 470 range, you can program it for use on Amateur 440, GMRS, FRS (if you can set the power output low enough), and any other band that you are licensed for authorized for. Same goes for 136 to 174 Motorola radios. They can do MURS, Amateur, and anything else you are authorized for.

So if there is a radio that can do 27MHz up to 29MHz (11 meter to 10 meter) then you can operate on what ever you are authorized or licensed for. CB radio with the correct power output and amateur with a license.

WRONG!!!

If the radio is not SPECIFICALLY FCC approved for the "service" you intend to use it on, it is illegal to use, even if you are licensed.

There is no such thing as a (legal) combined Amateur 10 Meter and CB/11 Meter radio. (In the USA)(Ever!)

As is there are no legal Part 90/FRS radios.

The only exception is the amateur service where the responsibility for proper technical operation rests on the LICENSED AMATEUR and not the manufacturer. However, any modifications void any FCC approvals the radio carries. In other words, if a CB is MODIFIED for 10 meter use it is not longer a legal CB, if a Part-90 radio is modified for 144 or 440 use it is no longer Part 90 approved, of an FRS radio is modified for 440 it is no longer a legal FRS radio.

 

[KI6ABZ]

That's essentially what I was saying.

If you bought a Motorola radio that operates in the 403 to 470 range, you can program it for use on Amateur 440, GMRS, FRS (if you can set the power output low enough), and any other band that you are licensed for authorized for. Same goes for 136 to 174 Motorola radios. They can do MURS, Amateur, and anything else you are authorized for.

So if there is a radio that can do 27MHz up to 29MHz (11 meter to 10 meter) then you can operate on what ever you are authorized or licensed for. CB radio with the correct power output and amateur with a license.

That is not correct. FCC Part 95 only allows radios to be used that are type accepted. There's no such thing as a commercial radio that's type accepted for FRS, MURS, or CB use, because the technical requirements are incompatible. An FRS radio can't be programmable, and so any programmable radio fails automatically for FRS use.

A GMRS radio can be used on 8 of the 14 FRS frequencies, but when doing so, it's still a GMRS radio. It has to follow the GMRS rules for those channels, not the FRS rules.

The only commercial radios that can be programmed for GMRS use are radios which are type-accepted for GMRS. No commercial radio can be legally used on CB, FRS, or MURS. The reason is that, again, the rules that allow for type-accepteance for the unlicensed bands are incompatible with the requirements for a radio that operates on a licensed band. If you have a radio that's programmable, which is required for commercial radios, then it's not going to be type-accepted for FRS, MURS, or CB.

And you can never, never, ever legally transmit on FRS, GMRS, MURS, or CB with an amateur transceiver, since those radios are not type-accepted for any licensed band.

There's only one exception: a genuine emergency when someone is in danger. Then you are legally allowed to use any form of communication at your disposal: FRS, GMRS, licensed, unlicensed, or even smoke signals. Heck, you can create a spark-gap transmitter with a relay and battery and use morse code to summon help, but someone had better be dying!

 

[tekshogun]

I stand utterly corrected upon further reading.

I figured FRS was out of the question on my UHF HT but didn't think GMRS and amateur could not be on the same radio. Or can you do GMRS and amateur on a commercial radio that is not capable of exceeding the GMRS power restrictions or does not break any other rules?

And never was I discussing modifying a radio only something built to manufacturers specifications.

So basically, if you have the ability to operate on different spectrums, such as A and B on your radio and you have the means to break the rules of B, then regardless of how you have it set up, it is always illegal for you to use B on that radio.

I should pay closer attention to the rules, although I would, like to say I've read them, I guess I didn't really read them.

Well. I'm wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.

I understand the "in case of emergency, use what you've got" clause but I know I won't need a radio modified for 66.6 MHz

 

[KI6ABZ]

If it makes you feel any better, I was firmly in the "there's nothing wrong with using an amateur transceiver on LMR frequencies" until I re-read the rules myself. Apparently,

As to the GMRS question: I believe that you can legally operate a GMRS type-accepted radio on the amateur band and still use it for GMRS as well, as long as you don't have to modify it to do so.

 

[N_Jay]

. . . So basically, if you have the ability to operate on different spectrums, such as A and B on your radio and you have the means to break the rules of B, then regardless of how you have it set up, it is always illegal for you to use B on that radio.
. . .

You are confusing Frequencies with Services.

 

[N_Jay]

. . . As to the GMRS question: I believe that you can legally operate a GMRS type-accepted radio on the amateur band and still use it for GMRS as well, as long as you don't have to modify it to do so.

You can run ANYTHING on the ham bands (as long as you are licensed and follow the rules)

So any radio that is legal on its designed service and able to be programmed to a ham band is OK on the ham band AND the original service.

Note, some services prohibit programmable radios.

 

[tekshogun]

I didn't mean to confuse frequencies with services, I do mean services, i.e. MURS, GMRS, FRS, HAM, CB, etc, etc, etc.

I have a radio that is not a ham radio but I have it programmed for the ham radio service and GMRS. It is a commercial HT. IN that case I should be able to use both services. From what I understand, with GMRS, you can have a radio that is programmable; although you are only allowed to transmit GMRS on those specific channels when using GMRS.

I do understand that with FRS, and I had forgotten this before, you can not have a programmable radio for FRS and it has a strict power limitation including no repeaters and no detachable antenna.

With MURS, I ASSUME you can have a programmable radio. I have not seen wording specific to this as it is with FRS. I do understand that MURS, like CB, FRS, and GMRS has been compartmentalized into channels. So can I have a 136MHz to 174MHz "commercial HT" programmed with the ham band and MURS?

With all that said, I think I fully understand the 27MHz CB. The only radios that can transmit on CB are 40 channel set, FCC type-accepted, so on and so forth, period.

Help me out here, I'm just trying to navigate all the rules.

 

[N_Jay]

I have not checked recently, but it used to be that almost any radio that was OK for Part-90 UHF was OK for GMRS, but recently I have been told that may be wrong.

I know MURS had a specific type approval process separate from Part-90 VHF radios.

27 MHz CB and FRS are much more restrictive.

 

[KI6ABZ]

There's really nothing complicated about it. You're making more out of it than you need to: For any service besides amateur radio, you need a radio that's type-accepted for that service. For amateur radio, you can basically use anything, as long as it is functioning properly and not interfering with a licensed service.

 

[tekshogun]

You're right, but I was making more out of it because I thought there was less to using a radio for multiple services. I now consider my self, well educated. Thanks to you all.

KI4GIC, 73

 

[cousinkix1953]

Whatever you do, stay off these frequencies...

26.700 Civil Air Patrol
27.870 Strategic Air Command
27.980 MARS

The upper FREE band is full of renegade licensed ham radio operators. They got sick of being shutdown by every selfish group that wants to take over the amateur bands for a deluge of stupid DX contests. Any moron can play a recording of himself (giving out his callsign and PO box) to collect a bunch of silly cards. These pile ups sound just like a bunch of good buddies repeating "skipland, skipland" over and over and over again on the CB garbage channels.

So many others head for the forbidden zone; where they can carry on a normal conversation with regular people.

Those guys were providing good HF tranceivers (Yaesu, Kenwood Icom etc) to others, long before those cheap 10 meter Ranger radios existed. I could have purchased a complete vintage Collins S-Line from a card carrying member of the ARRL, which is supposed to be the gang that rats everybody out to the FCC. The owner had turned his 51-S1 general coverage receiver into a VFO making it useable almost anywhere between 3-30 mhz.

On the other hand, I found it much easier to get a compact Yaesu FT 757 GX and modify it, without even making any permanent changes to the radio. Never had a problem with this rig and it caused fewer problems with our TV sets than most of those cheaply made CB radios. In fact the 757 SX is just 10 watts PEP which isn't even as powerful as the legal CB equipment.

The FCC can't get off of their butts and shut down our local pirate station! FRSC has operated 24/7/365 since 1996. Their address and telephone number is public information. They say words like "f--k" on the air every day. Your scary feds couldn't even shut these pirates down after toppling their antenna and shoving fully automatic M-4 assault rifles in peoples' faces. It took two weeks to find another rig, paid for with NPR style donations from listeners.

Idiots are throwing carriers and disrupting the local security company's UHF repeaters.

Dopey US Coast Guard inspectors don't know the difference between a legal 55 channel marine radio and a two meter ham rig which has been modified by an electronics chop shop. We have potty mouthed commercial fishermen cussing like drunken sailors from one end of the VHF high band to another. Every little group has their own secret business frequency that is assigned to somebody else! Morons can be heard cussing out those god----- sea lions on frequencies assigned to the FBI, a county sheriff, and other public safety agencies.

We have bigger problems than worrying about some bucket mouths between channel 40 and the 10 meter ham band...

 

[tekshogun]

We have bigger problems than worrying about some bucket mouths between channel 40 and the 10 meter ham band...

I'll let the government worry about people abusing services that are allocated to them and high-paying customers (military, federal agencies, public safety, television/radio broadcasting, personal communications/cell, etc). They have the resources and certainly the means to track down, enforce, and punish. We however have to police our own airwaves and, damn it, I don't want a bunch of morons causing our beloved allocations to be turned into unlicensed citizen-band orgy free-for-alls! I don't want the FCC to compartmentalize our ham spectrums into channels and then force us to buy restricted use radios.

 

[N_Jay]

Maybe a few here need to understand that there is no such thing as "freeband".

Implying there is, is as stupid as saying that if you drive on the shoulder there is no speed limit and you don't need a license.

 

[CommJunkie]

Implying there is, is as stupid as saying that if you drive on the shoulder there is no speed limit and you don't need a license.

Are you trying to tell me there IS a speed limit on the shoulder??!!

 

[tekshogun]

Maybe a few here need to understand that there is no such thing as "freeband".

Implying there is, is as stupid as saying that if you drive on the shoulder there is no speed limit and you don't need a license.

Yes, illegal transmissions and legal transmissions. I know I understood that even before I got my ham operators license.

Plus, you don't need a license to drive on the shoulder. Just a knock up side the head. A few of those will set ya' straight.