HAARP on 2750khz

[woody_46]

Well, the fact is HAARP is for real. Conspiracy theories abound since it is shrouded in secrecy. I guess it just goes along with it.

Nice to see the guys here follow it's transmissions since it is interesting for sure.

 

[Token]

I don't really consider HAARP all that secretive. They admit they exist, in fact have a web site. They have on their web page a near-realtime waterfall display that clearly shows whenever they are transmitting and the approximate frequency being used. They publish their power levels, antenna gains, fields of regard, bandwidths, and spectral purity levels. They have an open house so that people can visit. They publish recent, and frequent, photos. They have two HAARP cams, live webcams showing the antenna array area and approach roads.

They publish detailed papers on the science being achieved there in scientific publications.

They publicly admit that there is some DOD (USAF and USN) and DARPA involvement, and in general tend to give an abstract of that involvement. As the DOD relies rather strongly on RF communications you can understand they might want to do some testing and research with the World’s most powerful ionospheric research tool. The HAARP facility itself is not considered classified and the workers are not, in general, required to have a security clearance. HAARP has independent oversight by numerous non DOD Federal, State, and Local agencies and organizations.

HAARP has a hotline that can be called if they are causing interference with an authorized user. All of the data I can find indicates they take all such reports very seriously. HAARP operates on a not to interfere basis and must defer to the primary service on any frequency in the event of interference.

Like I said before, seems pretty "open" to me for such a secret weapon system. I know a lot of private, non-DOD or government contracting, companies that will not tell you so much about what they do.

T!

 

[majoco]

Perhaps the idea is not so stupid after all....

also modify the ionosphere and influence the performance of systems whose radio paths traverse the modified region. Perhaps the most famous example of the latter is the "Luxembourg" effect, first observed in 1933. In this case a weak Swiss radio station appeared to be modulated with signals from the powerful Luxembourg station, which was transmitting at a completely different frequency. Music from the Luxembourg station was picked up at the frequency of the Swiss station

and also see...

http://durenberger.com/resources/documents/LUXEMBOURGEFFECT0235.pdf

 

[majoco]

OOPs - doubled - blast them phat phingers...

 

[KE7IZL]

Perhaps the idea is not so stupid after all....



and also see...

http://durenberger.com/resources/documents/LUXEMBOURGEFFECT0235.pdf

Seems like it must work like this. Someone picking up the weak station at a distance requiring ionospheric bounce will be listening. Then at another station a more powerful signal at a different frequency is broadcasting. The varying strength of the waves from the more powerful station causes slight changes in certain properties of the ionosphere that effect its ability to reflect a signal. Since these effects vary in the same way as the instantaneous amplitude of the powerful radio broadcast, the amplitude of the weaker signal's reflection is varied in the same way as the instantaneous amplitude of the more powerful signal. Thus the person tuned to the weaker station from a distance requiring ionospheric bounce will hear the weaker station's signal modulated not only by that station's modulator, but also modulated by the ionospheric effect. So it will sound like 2 overlapping audio signals when AM demodulated by the receiver. This is similar to how a voice listening laser bounce system reflects a laser beam off of a window and tiny vibrations in the window caused by people talking will AM modulate the laser beam so that when the reflected laser beam is detected by a photocell, and the signal is fed to an audio amp and output to a speaker, the person listening will hear the sound of the other person (who thinks they are in private) actually talking.

This could be used if the government needed to issue a nationwide emergency alert, and were counting on SWLs listing for DX over ionospheric bounce to hear the message. Modulate every commercial AM station in the country using HAARP's broadcast. Everyone listening to a station on ionospheric bounce would hear the message, and soon it would be reported to the news by at least some SWL in the country somewhere, then that would spread to all the news organizations and it would become publicly broadcast news, so the warning would eventually reach everybody.

 

[ridgescan]

You guys DO believe me right? I really did hear HAARP on those other frequencies' carriers I shouldve videoed that too but I was tired and ready to quit at that point. Martin-you thought it was a "stupid idea" when I posted it? Hurt feelings here..

 

[Token]

You guys DO believe me right? I really did hear HAARP on those other frequencies' carriers I shouldve videoed that too but I was tired and ready to quit at that point. Martin-you thought it was a "stupid idea" when I posted it? Hurt feelings here..

Yes, video would have been a very good idea, just because of the novelty of it. As for me, I believe you. For any one of a number of reasons I can see where this might happen, and not all of them have to do with anything HAARP itself does intentionally or unintentionally. I have, many times, heard SW BC stations on MW BCB carriers, and in situations that do not add up easily as predictable imaging. I have also had antenna connections/parts acting as detectors and creating an unpredictable mixing issue.


So, disregarding what HAARP might have been doing or not doing in the way of modulating other signals, I can see it. Regarding what HAARP might have been causing with other signals in the ionosphere I would have to give it a bit more thought (but that does not mean I reject it), if for no other reason than I myself did not have it modulating WWV, and I did check the 2500, 5000, and 10000 kHz WWV freqs at the time HAARP was up.

T!

 

[ridgescan]

Thanks Token I'm relieved that someone has faith in my integrity here. I've never BS'd in here-never embellished either-I mentioned the observation only to illustrate how strong HAARPs signal was that night. Now I'm gunnin for another catch so I can video it this time.

 

[zz0468]

You guys DO believe me right? I really did hear HAARP on those other frequencies' carriers I shouldve videoed that too but I was tired and ready to quit at that point. Martin-you thought it was a "stupid idea" when I posted it? Hurt feelings here..

I believe you. But I think it's far more likely to be an artifact produced in your receiver than anything else.

 

[majoco]

Sorry, Ridgy, I didn't mean to imply that yours was a stupid idea and if I did , then I apologise sincerely.

What I meant was that my idea of the HAARP people modulating the ionosphere was a stupid idea until I came across the "Luxembourg" effect......now I'm the one with egg on face!

 

[KE7IZL]

Yes, video would have been a very good idea, just because of the novelty of it. As for me, I believe you. For any one of a number of reasons I can see where this might happen, and not all of them have to do with anything HAARP itself does intentionally or unintentionally. I have, many times, heard SW BC stations on MW BCB carriers, and in situations that do not add up easily as predictable imaging. I have also had antenna connections/parts acting as detectors and creating an unpredictable mixing issue.


So, disregarding what HAARP might have been doing or not doing in the way of modulating other signals, I can see it. Regarding what HAARP might have been causing with other signals in the ionosphere I would have to give it a bit more thought (but that does not mean I reject it), if for no other reason than I myself did not have it modulating WWV, and I did check the 2500, 5000, and 10000 kHz WWV freqs at the time HAARP was up.

T!

Acording to that article on the luxemburg effect the receiver, the transmitter, and the interfering transmitter have to be in an almost strait line for this to work. Likely your WWV signal source didn't make a straight line between you and the HAARP transmitter.

Also how could a radio receiver mix to signals that are so far apart in frequency? It can't. I believe in the luxemburg effect simply by the testimony I've heard in this thread, and my knowledge of the laser-bounce-off-of-window voice recorder concept.

 

[ridgescan]

I believe you. But I think it's far more likely to be an artifact produced in your receiver than anything else.

I dunno it never happened before like that.

Sorry, Ridgy, I didn't mean to imply that yours was a stupid idea and if I did , then I apologise sincerely.


What I meant was that my idea of the HAARP people modulating the ionosphere was a stupid idea until I came across the "Luxembourg" effect......now I'm the one with egg on face!

No offense taken Martin I was bein tongue in cheeky a little I have been trying to kick myself in the asss for not videoing probably the most important thing ever that I could get on video all the stupid crap I video and I passed on this one. Oh well maybe I will get lucky one night

 

[ridgescan]

Acording to that article on the luxemburg effect the receiver, the transmitter, and the interfering transmitter have to be in an almost strait line for this to work. Likely your WWV signal source didn't make a straight line between you and the HAARP transmitter.

Also how could a radio receiver mix to signals that are so far apart in frequency? It can't. I believe in the luxemburg effect simply by the testimony I've heard in this thread, and my knowledge of the laser-bounce-off-of-window voice recorder concept.

You have a good point-also neither would the signal from KFMB which is down in San Diego.
I guess I am alone with what I heard-like I described, I was done monitoring and videoing 2750khz and tuned to 760khz to catch a little Savage Nation (lol) before bed and the HAARP tone shot right over the broadcast. I'm all WTF?? So I tuned 2500khz right away since I figured it was right next to 2750 and heard it there then I tuned 5 then 10 then 15mhz but only heard it on 5. I thought wow but had no idea it was worth videoing so I let it go and now I regret not catching it for you guys.

 

[KE7IZL]

You have a good point-also neither would the signal from KFMB which is down in San Diego.
I guess I am alone with what I heard-like I described, I was done monitoring and videoing 2750khz and tuned to 760khz to catch a little Savage Nation (lol) before bed and the HAARP tone shot right over the broadcast. I'm all WTF?? So I tuned 2500khz right away since I figured it was right next to 2750 and heard it there then I tuned 5 then 10 then 15mhz but only heard it on 5. I thought wow but had no idea it was worth videoing so I let it go and now I regret not catching it for you guys.

Are you a believer in government conspiracies? Do you think that the government can do this because they somehow have radio technologies that surpass even the modern radio physics taught in top-notch universities, and can do things with that most physicists would say was literally impossible (and if it was discovered by a civilian scientist, said scientist would be abducted by secret agents and forced to work for the military under penalty of death if they refused, in order to keep the technology secret)? Do you think that somehow the government is so powerful it can even defy the laws of physics? Do you really believe in that? Because I don't. The government is like everyone else. It is bound by the laws of physics, so if you are trying to tell me that the government has somehow discovered how to basically to generate supernatural powers by using radio waves, and use said supernatural powers to effect other radio waves, I'm gonna think that you are crazy and paranoid.

 

[Token]

Acording to that article on the luxemburg effect the receiver, the transmitter, and the interfering transmitter have to be in an almost strait line for this to work. Likely your WWV signal source didn't make a straight line between you and the HAARP transmitter.

Well, that presents a real problem then, because ridgescan’s location would not put any of the signals he heard mixing with the HAARP signal in a straight line. ridgescan is in San Francisco, CA, HAARP is in Alaska (aprox 338 true bearing from his location, or North-North-West), the AM BCB station he heard mixing with HAARP was in San Diego, CA (aprox 135 true from his location, or South-East), and WWV is in Fort Collins, CO (aprox 071 true from his location, or East-North-East).

His bearings to each station would have been similar, with slight variation since we are about 270 miles apart, to my bearings to each. HAARP is 336 true, San Diego 160 true, and WWV is 062 true.

Also how could a radio receiver mix to signals that are so far apart in frequency? It can't.

Well, yes it can.

Simple imaging can cause signals to be “heard” by receivers on frequencies those signals are not being transmitted on. Every single superhetrodyne receiver ever made is subject to this, but a well-designed unit will make the possible combinations so far out of band, and the band pass filtering at combinations of both the RF and IF levels adequate by design, as to be almost immune. Almost is the key, very strong signals will still cause imaging in even the best designs.

Intermod is the more likely culprit though. This can happen inside the receiver itself when electronic components that are not intended to be mixers act as such. For example, a very strong signal can drive the transistors of the RF amplifier in the front end into saturation, and when operating in such a non-linear range Intermodulation Distortion can occur, causing odd signals to pop up on odd frequencies and signals to mix. It can also happen outside of the radio in the feedline and/or antenna when parts unintentionally act as semiconductor devices and, again, become mixers when not wanted. The stronger all of the signals involved are the more likely this is to happen.

The end result is that it is possible, indeed not all that uncommon, for receivers to end up demodulating more than one transmitted frequency at the same time. So that you can end up with the audio of two widely separated, in frequency, stations being demodulated when the receiver is only tuned to one specific frequency.

T!

 

[Token]

Are you a believer in government conspiracies? Do you think that the government can do this because they somehow have radio technologies that surpass even the modern radio physics taught in top-notch universities, and can do things with that most physicists would say was literally impossible (and if it was discovered by a civilian scientist, said scientist would be abducted by secret agents and forced to work for the military under penalty of death if they refused, in order to keep the technology secret)? Do you think that somehow the government is so powerful it can even defy the laws of physics? Do you really believe in that? Because I don't. The government is like everyone else. It is bound by the laws of physics, so if you are trying to tell me that the government has somehow discovered how to basically to generate supernatural powers by using radio waves, and use said supernatural powers to effect other radio waves, I'm gonna think that you are crazy and paranoid.

I think you might be misunderstanding what is being said. As far as I can tell nothing in ridges post even hints at conspiracy or actions impossible by our current state of understanding in physics.

In fact, the only for sure posts in this thread playing with that possibility are two, one from another poster that sounded facetious, and one by me, when I tongue-in-cheek suggested that the Ark of the Covenant was really a remote for a HAARP installation, an installation that I attributed to a society that existed over 4000 years ago.

T!

 

[ridgescan]

Are you a believer in government conspiracies? Do you think that the government can do this because they somehow have radio technologies that surpass even the modern radio physics taught in top-notch universities, and can do things with that most physicists would say was literally impossible (and if it was discovered by a civilian scientist, said scientist would be abducted by secret agents and forced to work for the military under penalty of death if they refused, in order to keep the technology secret)? Do you think that somehow the government is so powerful it can even defy the laws of physics? Do you really believe in that? Because I don't. The government is like everyone else. It is bound by the laws of physics, so if you are trying to tell me that the government has somehow discovered how to basically to generate supernatural powers by using radio waves, and use said supernatural powers to effect other radio waves, I'm gonna think that you are crazy and paranoid.

I just posted what I heard-you are carrying this too far pal-I suggest you switch to decaf. The conspiracy crap didn't even enter my mind. I was being nice to you man! Why the insults??

 

[KE7IZL]

Well, that presents a real problem then, because ridgescan’s location would not put any of the signals he heard mixing with the HAARP signal in a straight line. ridgescan is in San Francisco, CA, HAARP is in Alaska (aprox 338 true bearing from his location, or North-North-West), the AM BCB station he heard mixing with HAARP was in San Diego, CA (aprox 135 true from his location, or South-East), and WWV is in Fort Collins, CO (aprox 071 true from his location, or East-North-East).

His bearings to each station would have been similar, with slight variation since we are about 270 miles apart, to my bearings to each. HAARP is 336 true, San Diego 160 true, and WWV is 062 true.




Well, yes it can.

Simple imaging can cause signals to be “heard” by receivers on frequencies those signals are not being transmitted on. Every single superhetrodyne receiver ever made is subject to this, but a well-designed unit will make the possible combinations so far out of band, and the band pass filtering at combinations of both the RF and IF levels adequate by design, as to be almost immune. Almost is the key, very strong signals will still cause imaging in even the best designs.

Intermod is the more likely culprit though. This can happen inside the receiver itself when electronic components that are not intended to be mixers act as such. For example, a very strong signal can drive the transistors of the RF amplifier in the front end into saturation, and when operating in such a non-linear range Intermodulation Distortion can occur, causing odd signals to pop up on odd frequencies and signals to mix. It can also happen outside of the radio in the feedline and/or antenna when parts unintentionally act as semiconductor devices and, again, become mixers when not wanted. The stronger all of the signals involved are the more likely this is to happen.

The end result is that it is possible, indeed not all that uncommon, for receivers to end up demodulating more than one transmitted frequency at the same time. So that you can end up with the audio of two widely separated, in frequency, stations being demodulated when the receiver is only tuned to one specific frequency.

T!

But then in that case if it was a very strong signal bypassing the bandpass filter, it would be heard EVERYWHERE you tuned to. This sounds like the guy is saying that the HAARP signal is riding on someone else's carrier.

 

[ridgescan]

But then in that case if it was a very strong signal bypassing the bandpass filter, it would be heard EVERYWHERE you tuned to. This sounds like the guy is saying that the HAARP signal is riding on someone else's carrier.

You heard right that's what I'm saying because that's what I heard. "the guy" heard the HAARP tones on someone else's carriers on 3 different other frequencies. "the guy" only checked around on 5 other frequencies total because he had no idea there would be such a fuss about it. I don't care if you don't believe me you have your opinion-I just don't appreciate your rude judgements on me. You are the reason I shoot videos of so much stuff I get-the one time I don't have video proof and look how you're acting. If I did take a video you would have nothing to say so basically you've called me "crazy and paranoid" AND a liar. Nice
What if I catch it again and get video this time? I hope I do. I monitor those frequencies every night.

 

[Token]

But then in that case if it was a very strong signal bypassing the bandpass filter, it would be heard EVERYWHERE you tuned to. This sounds like the guy is saying that the HAARP signal is riding on someone else's carrier.

A couple of things.

Who said anything about a signal “bypassing” the bandpass filter (BPF) of the receiver? BPFs are not brick walls, that means that signals absolutely do “bypass” those filters all the time, but might be 30 or 40 dB down, or more, after doing so. And the key to that is after being reduced by such an amount they are no longer strong enough to cause issues with the rest of the receiver path.

Also, completely removing the BPF still would not make every signal heard everywhere you tune. One of the goals of the BPF is to reduce the probability of imaging and intermod. But many (most?) receivers have BPFs that are several MHz wide, and yet you do not “hear” every strong signal in that several MHz width everywhere you tune. Remember, there is also IF filtering done, and the basics of how a superhet receiver works attempts to remove unwanted signals even without any filtering. So that even zero filtering, either at RF with the BPFs or at IF, would still only result in certain combinations of signals being heard in the detector/demodulator stage.

The poster in this case is saying he was hearing HAARP when tuned to multiple frequencies, but only when other signals were present on those frequencies (and this last fact is key). Some may take that to mean HAARP was doing something with the signals (“riding on the carrier”, if you prefer), but I would tend to think it was something in the receiver causing this. As I have described there are several ways it can happen. I have seen it many times with other signals having nothing to do with HAARP.

Regardless of the reason that a person might think or believe, it is absolutely possible to tune to one frequency and hear signals from another frequency or combinations of signals from multiple frequencies. It happens all the time, and differentiating those false images from real can sometimes be a daunting task, and many times the listener does not even realize he is hearing something that is “not right”. You may not understand how this can happen, but that does not mean it does not happen, a more complete understanding of how superheterodyne receivers work would be a good starting point.

T!