Help ID NPS Santa Monica Mountains Recreation Area - new repeater 170.025

Status
Not open for further replies.

es93546

A Member Twice
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
1,574
Location
Right Side of CA on maps
Added 170.025 to the Db as a simulcast of the Castro 170.525 repeater.
Will add location info once we can confirm.

In reaction to your adding this new repeater to the database, I submitted the following. I thought I would make my submission public as it concerns most people with interest in National Park Service radio systems. To wit:

For the Santa Monica National Recreation Area, the new repeater on the system does not "simulcast" Castro Peak. There are a few repeaters on this Area's system that are multicast, not simulcast. Multicasted repeaters are repeaters on different frequencies which transmit the same signal on all repeaters at the same time. Simulcasting is when more than one repeater is on the same frequency and transmitting the same signal at the same time. To call this newly found repeater simulcasting Castro would mean one of the Uniden SDS radios would have to be used to eliminate simulcast transmission distortion and that is untrue as the new repeater and the Castro repeater on on different frequencies. This is important as "simulcast" would likely confuse new and old RR members to thinking they have to upgrade when a 30-40 year old scanner would suffice for listening to this system. Sequoia-Kings and Joshua Tree National Parks have multicast systems also and those too should not be confused with simulcasting.

I hope this is useful.
es93546
 

es93546

A Member Twice
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
1,574
Location
Right Side of CA on maps
Sorry, I know the difference. Just a slip of the tongue fingers!

Your message implies that you are a Database Administrator and made a mistake entering the submission. However, I don't see an indication in your avatar that you are a DB admin. That, and the erroneous text has not been corrected. What gives?
 

Tower5153

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
64
In reaction to your adding this new repeater to the database, I submitted the following. I thought I would make my submission public as it concerns most people with interest in National Park Service radio systems. To wit:

For the Santa Monica National Recreation Area, the new repeater on the system does not "simulcast" Castro Peak. There are a few repeaters on this Area's system that are multicast, not simulcast. Multicasted repeaters are repeaters on different frequencies which transmit the same signal on all repeaters at the same time. Simulcasting is when more than one repeater is on the same frequency and transmitting the same signal at the same time. To call this newly found repeater simulcasting Castro would mean one of the Uniden SDS radios would have to be used to eliminate simulcast transmission distortion and that is untrue as the new repeater and the Castro repeater on on different frequencies. This is important as "simulcast" would likely confuse new and old RR members to thinking they have to upgrade when a 30-40 year old scanner would suffice for listening to this system. Sequoia-Kings and Joshua Tree National Parks have multicast systems also and those too should not be confused with simulcasting.

I hope this is useful.
es93546
You are a bit off on this subject. The simulcasting you seem to be referring to is used primarily in digital systems (P25 Phase 2 being most prevalent) which requires the use of high end scanners which can decode the simultaneous incoming digital signals from multiple sites.

Federal and State Command Centers have ability to “simulcast” non-digital radio broadcasts. An example - A BOL for a lost subject. The dispatch center selects SIMULCAST on the dispatch console and they then select the frequencies they want to transmit on. When I was working in dispatch, we could select up to 3 different frequencies to transmit on (Dispatch, Command, and Admin as an example). You do not need any sort of special equipment to monitor these broadcasts, as they are not true digital simulcast, they are simply analog messages from different repeaters on different channels/frequencies.

You can also program the dispatch consoles to automatically simulcast analog radio messages by selecting any of the channels involved. It sounds like that’s what’s going on in this case.
 

es93546

A Member Twice
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
1,574
Location
Right Side of CA on maps
You are a bit off on this subject. The simulcasting you seem to be referring to is used primarily in digital systems (P25 Phase 2 being most prevalent) which requires the use of high end scanners which can decode the simultaneous incoming digital signals from multiple sites.

Federal and State Command Centers have ability to “simulcast” non-digital radio broadcasts. An example - A BOL for a lost subject. The dispatch center selects SIMULCAST on the dispatch console and they then select the frequencies they want to transmit on. When I was working in dispatch, we could select up to 3 different frequencies to transmit on (Dispatch, Command, and Admin as an example). You do not need any sort of special equipment to monitor these broadcasts, as they are not true digital simulcast, they are simply analog messages from different repeaters on different channels/frequencies.

You can also program the dispatch consoles to automatically simulcast analog radio messages by selecting any of the channels involved. It sounds like that’s what’s going on in this case.

The National Park Service, in a number of locations, has multicast radio systems for parks. Multicast systems are those that carry the transmissions of each repeater site on all the other repeater sites, each repeater being on separate frequencies. You are speaking of simulcast, not multicast. The difference being simulcast is multiple repeaters or remote bases transmitting on the same frequency at the same time. The parks with multicast I know of include Sequoia-Kings National Park, Joshua Tree NP and Grand Canyon NP. I believe Mt. Rainier might have such a system also. Back east I think Natchez Trace and Blue Ridge Parkway might now be multicast.

Why multicast? First, so that every unit in the field hears all the traffic on a particular net, say park net, law enforcement net, backcountry net, frontcountry net, etc., hears all the traffic on the net, even though they can't hear the individual repeater the traffic is on. Field units often need to hear every unit on the net as the traffic might be relevant to what they are doing in their location. Second, in this way units on one repeater, who can't hear other repeaters, don't transmit at the same time someone on another repeater is transmitting. In mountainous terrain over distances of 50 miles or greater, having a system of multiple independent repeaters on the same frequency results in dispatch having to advise a unit on one repeater standby, due to traffic on another repeater. Third, if dispatch has traffic meant to be heard by all, such as a BOLO (be on the lookout), they can transmit it once over all the repeaters at the same time, rather than transmit it one repeater at a time. If a person is an urban scanner listener or one in small jurisdictions such as the counties east of the Rockies or Mississippi River, multicasting may not be a familiar concept.

We can all hear a multicast broadcast every night. If we tune into all the AM radio stations we can in the evening we will hear, let's say, WLS in Chicago, KOA in Denver, KOB in Albuquerque and KFI in Los Angeles, we might hear a syndicated program being broadcasted at the same time. Each station, of course, is transmitting the same time, but this is not simulcasting, because each station is on a different frequency. Many people would call this simulcasting, but it is not because all the stations are on different frequencies, not the same frequency.

Let's return to the Santa Monica National Recreation Area radio system. The RR database shows 4 repeaters, Solstice, Laguna, Castro and a newly discovered repeater we don't know the location of on a frequency of 170.0250. The new repeater carries the same traffic, not just of Castro, but of Laguna and Solstice as well. If units can only hear Solstice in their location and can't hear Laguna directly, they will still hear the traffic a unit using Laguna is transmitting. There might also be units that can only hear Castro, able to hear traffic being transmitting on Solstice, Laguna and the new, unknown location, repeater on 170.025.
 

iscanvnc2

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Messages
410
Location
Ventura, CA
Suggest es93546 reread my Post #19 regarding Laguna.

Again, Laguna is LOS from me (11 miles), WAS strongest of the 3, hasn’t been heard in a few years and should be deleted from the Db.
 

Tower5153

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
64
Suggest es93546 reread my Post #19 regarding Laguna.

Again, Laguna is LOS from me (11 miles), WAS strongest of the 3, hasn’t been heard in a few years and should be deleted from the Db.
You are going to find that he will ALWAYS be right no matter what the subject.
 

Tower5153

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
64
The National Park Service, in a number of locations, has multicast radio systems for parks. Multicast systems are those that carry the transmissions of each repeater site on all the other repeater sites, each repeater being on separate frequencies. You are speaking of simulcast, not multicast. The difference being simulcast is multiple repeaters or remote bases transmitting on the same frequency at the same time. The parks with multicast I know of include Sequoia-Kings National Park, Joshua Tree NP and Grand Canyon NP. I believe Mt. Rainier might have such a system also. Back east I think Natchez Trace and Blue Ridge Parkway might now be multicast.

Why multicast? First, so that every unit in the field hears all the traffic on a particular net, say park net, law enforcement net, backcountry net, frontcountry net, etc., hears all the traffic on the net, even though they can't hear the individual repeater the traffic is on. Field units often need to hear every unit on the net as the traffic might be relevant to what they are doing in their location. Second, in this way units on one repeater, who can't hear other repeaters, don't transmit at the same time someone on another repeater is transmitting. In mountainous terrain over distances of 50 miles or greater, having a system of multiple independent repeaters on the same frequency results in dispatch having to advise a unit on one repeater standby, due to traffic on another repeater. Third, if dispatch has traffic meant to be heard by all, such as a BOLO (be on the lookout), they can transmit it once over all the repeaters at the same time, rather than transmit it one repeater at a time. If a person is an urban scanner listener or one in small jurisdictions such as the counties east of the Rockies or Mississippi River, multicasting may not be a familiar concept.

We can all hear a multicast broadcast every night. If we tune into all the AM radio stations we can in the evening we will hear, let's say, WLS in Chicago, KOA in Denver, KOB in Albuquerque and KFI in Los Angeles, we might hear a syndicated program being broadcasted at the same time. Each station, of course, is transmitting the same time, but this is not simulcasting, because each station is on a different frequency. Many people would call this simulcasting, but it is not because all the stations are on different frequencies, not the same frequency.

Let's return to the Santa Monica National Recreation Area radio system. The RR database shows 4 repeaters, Solstice, Laguna, Castro and a newly discovered repeater we don't know the location of on a frequency of 170.0250. The new repeater carries the same traffic, not just of Castro, but of Laguna and Solstice as well. If units can only hear Solstice in their location and can't hear Laguna directly, they will still hear the traffic a unit using Laguna is transmitting. There might also be units that can only hear Castro, able to hear traffic being transmitting on Solstice, Laguna and the new, unknown location, repeater on 170.025.
So let me ask you a question….If I’m sitting at my dispatch console and decide to read the weather and I select the SIMULCAST button on the console and select 3 completely different frequencies (Local, Command, and District) on totally different radio channels, what would this be??

(Again, 3 separate channels on 3 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES, and I selected all of them individually.

I never once said anything about multicast, I know what it is quite well. What I said was that the repeaters in question are probably SIMULCAST SELECTED as it’s called in dispatch for some reason. It’s done all the time, but again, you seem unwilling to accept anything other than what you push as your perceived level of knowledge in these groups. This type of operation has been going on since I started working in dispatch in 1988.
 

Tower5153

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
64
This may or may not be related to the present discussion but as I pointed out in a previous thread about the SMMNRA, I haven’t heard the Laguna 171.725 repeater in several years. As shown on Laflyer’s map, the Laguna Peak site is at the far western end of the Santa Monica Mtns, LOS from my house. Most of the western end (within Ventura county) consists of CA state land, mainly Point Mugu State Park.

Consider it was decided that a Laguna repeater was superfluous; That Castro Peak provided sufficient coverage of western SMMNRA. But the far eastern end lacked adequate coverage. Hence they eliminated Laguna and added 170.025.

Solution:
1. Delete Laguna from the Db.
2. Add 170.025 once its location is determined.
Your post makes perfect sense to me. It seems that they have Simulcast Selected the repeaters together to get more coverage.
 

es93546

A Member Twice
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
1,574
Location
Right Side of CA on maps
You are going to find that he will ALWAYS be right no matter what the subject.

Well, when the ad hominem surfaces I just drop the discussion. If you want to discuss issues and the semantics of multi and simul cast that is fine, but this remark is my signal to not participate in the "discussion."
 

officer_415

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
1,553
Location
SF Bay Area
Just to add my two cents, there are many DB entries with descriptions like "Fire Dispatch VHF Simulcast" or "Simulcast with P25 System". This merely refers to the fact that it's a simultaneous broadcast with another channel/talkgroup. While es93546 is correct that this is technically a multicast, I think most people understand what it means. It's pretty clear that it's not a multi-site simulcast system, due to the fact that there are different frequencies listed.

For the Santa Monica National Recreation Area, the new repeater on the system does not "simulcast" Castro Peak. There are a few repeaters on this Area's system that are multicast, not simulcast. Multicasted repeaters are repeaters on different frequencies which transmit the same signal on all repeaters at the same time. Simulcasting is when more than one repeater is on the same frequency and transmitting the same signal at the same time. To call this newly found repeater simulcasting Castro would mean one of the Uniden SDS radios would have to be used to eliminate simulcast transmission distortion and that is untrue as the new repeater and the Castro repeater on on different frequencies. This is important as "simulcast" would likely confuse new and old RR members to thinking they have to upgrade when a 30-40 year old scanner would suffice for listening to this system. Sequoia-Kings and Joshua Tree National Parks have multicast systems also and those too should not be confused with simulcasting.

Correct.

Federal and State Command Centers have ability to “simulcast” non-digital radio broadcasts. An example - A BOL for a lost subject. The dispatch center selects SIMULCAST on the dispatch console and they then select the frequencies they want to transmit on. When I was working in dispatch, we could select up to 3 different frequencies to transmit on (Dispatch, Command, and Admin as an example). You do not need any sort of special equipment to monitor these broadcasts, as they are not true digital simulcast, they are simply analog messages from different repeaters on different channels/frequencies.

You can also program the dispatch consoles to automatically simulcast analog radio messages by selecting any of the channels involved. It sounds like that’s what’s going on in this case.

Also correct.
 

iscanvnc2

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Messages
410
Location
Ventura, CA
To quote myself
Again, Laguna is LOS from me (11 miles), WAS strongest of the 3, hasn’t been heard in a few years and should be deleted from the Db.

Laguna is back!!!
The lost is found!!
Will wonders never cease!
This had to have happened within the last couple of weeks or even days.
 

LAflyer

Global DB Admin
Moderator
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
1,879
Location
SoCal
Laguna is back!!!
The lost is found!!
Will wonders never cease!
This had to have happened within the last couple of weeks or even days.

This is a good example of why hastily deleting information from the Db without actual confirmation of depreciation of a frequency is not a good idea.

There could be instances when frequencies are silent for years, yet still be valid and operational if needed.
 

iscanvnc2

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Messages
410
Location
Ventura, CA
I heartily agree, especially with Fed freqs.

But you have to wonder why it was off so long. Evidently SMMRA was able to provide adequate comms with out Laguna for years as if it weren't needed. So why now?

$$$$? Especially when the new 170.025 is considered.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top