How to ground under these circumstances

[stealth71]

Just be sure to stand under the tallest tree you can find, I remind them. Or run slowly out in the open to the nearest empty field in a repeating zig-zag pattern. Lightning cannot hit you if you zig and then zag.

I guess if I could just get my entire house to zig-zag, I wouldn't have to worry about grounding then.

 

[tonsoffun]

Ron, that was simply one of the coolest articles. I actually read it a few weeks ago and took notes, no joke, LOL!! You did a darn professional job, and thats where I got a lot of ideas about how I want to run all my coax, etc. So I'll take this opportunity to say thanks for doing such a nice write up. Nice looking antenna as well.

Hi Stealth71,
I am glad you liked it and hope many others have as well, it was fun and I learned quite a bit. Many thanks go out to Jack (OceanaRadio) that answered alot of my questions during this project.

Ron

 

[ocelot]

Hi Stealth71,
I am glad you liked it and hope many others have as well, it was fun and I learned quite a bit. Many thanks go out to Jack (OceanaRadio) that answered alot of my questions during this project.

Ron

Yes, I would agree with stealth on that one - it was a great article, and the pics were superb in detail. In fact, the article and pics were so detailed, I've decided to give up on my 20' mast and either go big or give up. So, I either erect a 50' tower - with all the grounding and bonding, or I nail a scantenna to my bedroom wall.

 

[Alliance01TX]

Interesting

 

[Alliance01TX]

Posting Error

 

[Alliance01TX]

Antenna Ground v House Ground

Most two-way radio guys (not all) would tell you to consider a separate 4' (minimum) or 8' preferred copper ground rod that is totally independent of the home wiring, if possible and reasonable. This would be at run from the Antenna ground point (not knowing the type Antenna you are using this is general) via a cooper ground wire direct to the grounding 4' or 8' rod. This provides a 'confirmed' solid ground versus one that might be marginal... Thinking here is if you install the grounding, then no-doubt it's a solid one...

If you are using a receive-only radio(s) then smaller gages of wire (12 or 14 is fine) to protect the Antenna and home. NOTE: This will-not protect the radio(s) itself in most cases just direct lighting and static to earth and hopefully, away from your radio gear..

Thus a separate scheme via the Antenna to Radio COAX grounding is generally called for to protect against BOTH lightning and static discharge. The COAX should have a Lighting Arrestor or like device to disrupt high-voltage thus in most cases sparing your radio gear...and if you live is a dry climate static is a big issue and static discharge coupling might be desired too...

Recommend search 'Radio Grounding' as using house grounding would be a last-resort in my opinion and as said in other post... Electrical Codes are proper & great for installing 110 VAC safely.....but NOT exactly made for RF / RADIO Systems - Two (2) Separate areas of discipline.

Hope this gives you another set of things to ponder....
__________________

 

[prcguy]

You call it two separate areas of discipline, I call it the right way and wrong way. And most two-way radio guys don't have a clue about grounding standards and surviving a direct lightning hit. You must bond any ground rod(s) to the house ground, not just to satisfy the NEC but to keep the ground potential as close as you can between what lightning hits and the rest of the equipment in your house. If lightning hits your antenna and its grounded separate from the house there can be tens of thousands of volts between grounds and everything plugged into anything in the house is in jeopardy. If there is very low resistance between the antenna ground, its ground rods and the house, everything will rise together in a strike and can be at nearly the same potential where equipment may survive. The conductor size from extra ground rods to the house ground is specified by NEC as #6 gauge copper and any commercial site that can withstand direct hits will use 500MCM or larger wire for this. It doesn't matter if its for receive only, the ground wire needs to be large in all cases to be effective.
prcguy

Most two-way radio guys (not all) would tell you to consider a separate 4' (minimum) or 8' preferred copper ground rod that is totally independent of the home wiring, if possible and reasonable. This would be at run from the Antenna ground point (not knowing the type Antenna you are using this is general) via a cooper ground wire direct to the grounding 4' or 8' rod. This provides a 'confirmed' solid ground versus one that might be marginal... Thinking here is if you install the grounding, then no-doubt it's a solid one...

If you are using a receive-only radio(s) then smaller gages of wire (12 or 14 is fine) to protect the Antenna and home. NOTE: This will-not protect the radio(s) itself in most cases just direct lighting and static to earth and hopefully, away from your radio gear..

Thus a separate scheme via the Antenna to Radio COAX grounding is generally called for to protect against BOTH lightning and static discharge. The COAX should have a Lighting Arrestor or like device to disrupt high-voltage thus in most cases sparing your radio gear...and if you live is a dry climate static is a big issue and static discharge coupling might be desired too...

Recommend search 'Radio Grounding' as using house grounding would be a last-resort in my opinion and as said in other post... Electrical Codes are proper & great for installing 110 VAC safely.....but NOT exactly made for RF / RADIO Systems - Two (2) Separate areas of discipline.

Hope this gives you another set of things to ponder....
__________________

 

[jack103]

Watch out for internet electricians!!

PCR guy that info is 100% correct! I am a licensed electrician for over 40 + years and some of the info reported on the INTERNET scares the &^%$ out of me.

 

[stealth71]

You call it two separate areas of discipline, I call it the right way and wrong way. And most two-way radio guys don't have a clue about grounding standards and surviving a direct lightning hit. You must bond any ground rod(s) to the house ground, not just to satisfy the NEC but to keep the ground potential as close as you can between what lightning hits and the rest of the equipment in your house. If lightning hits your antenna and its grounded separate from the house there can be tens of thousands of volts between grounds and everything plugged into anything in the house is in jeopardy. If there is very low resistance between the antenna ground, its ground rods and the house, everything will rise together in a strike and can be at nearly the same potential where equipment may survive. The conductor size from extra ground rods to the house ground is specified by NEC as #6 gauge copper and any commercial site that can withstand direct hits will use 500MCM or larger wire for this. It doesn't matter if its for receive only, the ground wire needs to be large in all cases to be effective.
prcguy

I have to agree with prcguy in that things must be done according to the codes. Bonding the antenna system to the power system I believe is a requirement, although I'm still awaiting my copy of the NEC to see specifics.

 

[oneirish]

Argggh!

Planning on grounding my three rooftop antennas this weekend. Every time I settle on the 'correct way' I find more experts swearing it's wrong.
Now I read on ICE's pages NOT to bond to the house neutral or service ground.
See:
http://www.iceradioproducts.com/31.html
http://www.iceradioproducts.com/32.htm

I tend to believe a company who specializes in lightning protection products but also trust the electricians.

Or am I confusing "electrical service box connections" and "AC service neutrals" as something else? I am not an electrician.

My plan is to install a system similar to Ron's (but with far less skill and using ICE products) with a breakout box by the house before the coax enters the crawl space. All attached via short heavy copper lead down to a couple of 8' ground rods under the box.

I want to ground the outer braid only but am unclear if this means a strike or nearby strike will then just enter on the center conductor. Some articles swear it will, some swear it won't.

Is bonding to the house electrical ground (which I can't find anyway in my 1958 house) only to protect the equipment from transients/surges on the AC outlets? If so I'm fine unplugging it all before a storm or after use which i do anyway.

If electricity just wants to get to ground on the most efficient path possible - which I believe it does - how can anything improve on grounding the outer shield (expect maybe Ron's way of grounding both inner and outer) straight to an 8-foot invitation into earth?

 

[stealth71]

Planning on grounding my three rooftop antennas this weekend. Every time I settle on the 'correct way' I find more experts swearing it's wrong.
Now I read on ICE's pages NOT to bond to the house neutral or service ground.
See:
http://www.iceradioproducts.com/31.html
http://www.iceradioproducts.com/32.htm

I tend to believe a company who specializes in lightning protection products but also trust the electricians.

Or am I confusing "electrical service box connections" and "AC service neutrals" as something else? I am not an electrician.

My plan is to install a system similar to Ron's (but with far less skill and using ICE products) with a breakout box by the house before the coax enters the crawl space. All attached via short heavy copper lead down to a couple of 8' ground rods under the box.

I want to ground the outer braid only but am unclear if this means a strike or nearby strike will then just enter on the center conductor. Some articles swear it will, some swear it won't.

Is bonding to the house electrical ground (which I can't find anyway in my 1958 house) only to protect the equipment from transients/surges on the AC outlets? If so I'm fine unplugging it all before a storm or after use which i do anyway.

If electricity just wants to get to ground on the most efficient path possible - which I believe it does - how can anything improve on grounding the outer shield (expect maybe Ron's way of grounding both inner and outer) straight to an 8-foot invitation into earth?

Oneirish, since I'm relatively new here, I admit that there are no doubt others that are more knowledgeable that I am, however I think what the Ice Products articles were saying is that when it comes to grounding an antenna system specifically, you should not rely solely on a cold water pipe or electrical service to ground your antenna and/or tower. Rather, you should pound at least one 8 foot copper ground rod electrode into the dirt (preferably several), and then connect your antenna to these ground rods using the shortest heavy gauge wire possible. There's a little more to it, but that essentially takes care of the antenna part of the grounding system.

Then, once you have properly grounded your antenna system to that ground rod, you should connect a jumper from that rod to the electrical ground as well. An article online puts it better than I can:

"Bond the electrode for the radio and television equipment (if used) to the building's power grounding electrode system with a conductor not smaller than 6 AWG copper or equivalent. The point of this is to prevent flash over between the electrodes by equalizing the potential with a bonding jumper".

So think of it this way: (I think I have this right) Your antenna has its own dedicated and properly installed grounding system, and your home electrical has its own dedicated and properly installed grounding system, but the two need to be joined together with a heavy jumper cable to prevent or lower the possibility of damage caused by flash over from a lightning strike. I'll have to let the others try and answer your other questions.

Chris

 

[Alliance01TX]

Radio Grounding | Antenna Grounding

Additional points to other post.....and some things to ponder and Grounding should be looked at in two (2) separate venues.

The Antenna grounding is mainly designed to protect (in this case) the House if Lighting hits the Antenna and-or the Antenna Mast. Trying to take the Lighting to Ground in the fastest-most-direct means versus into the roofing and start a fire...

The second is 'Radio (RF) Grounding and Static Protection' is also recommended via the COAX...

Repeat same process (research on AARL or HAM Sites) for Radio Grounding & Static issues.....

As stated in prior recommend separate grounding with 8' preferred copper rod (4' is ok) for the Antenna with proper gauge of wire (Radio receive only a <14 Gage is best) if Transmitting best is <8 Gage minimum for protection.

Most Hams & ex-Military Comm's folks would say NEVER-EVER use House Pipes or other House Grounding as it has at least three (3) main issues:

1. The Ground could be installed poorly or in older homes have Aluminum someplace in the Ground-Circuit
2. The Home Ground also (normally) has transit into/out-of the Electrical Grid systems & that's a no-no
3. If you do not install the Ground Rod, Grounding Wires/Straps/Lugs how can you be reasonable sure it's new and done properly?
Bonus: Great Grounding methods can significantly REDUCE Man-Made Noise factors!

Finally, while the NEC (codes) are great and should be followed for Life-Safety and proper installation, these are-not meant for Radio Systems and 'electrical helpers' have a very-bad-habit of 'wire-pulling-' and such... stretching...the end result are issues later....

These type installs (some wil say overkill-which is true) will provide in most cases more safety and reduce NOISE on your receiver / scanner and that's the real win-win is better reception....

 

[kb0nly]

Wow, looks like the discussion got going after my last post! Sorry guys got busy this week and didnt have time to get back until tonight.

All good info so far!

I'll step back just a bit to comment on two things. The question about running a ground to a water pipe on the first floor, i believe it was to a bathroom water line. They do recommend that you connect nearest the entry point of the water line, however, i take the side of others that something is better than nothing! Just realize that your not going to be perfectly grounded.

Arrestors for coax, ICE vs Polyphaser... Go with the ICE products. I wish i had them on all my coax runs from the tower, maybe someday i will be able to afford swapping them out one at a time. I got a good deal on the gas arc plug ones i have in place now, and it was better to put them in than nothing at all and waiting until i can afford something better. The advantage with the ICE models is they provide a constant drain for static buildup as well. We have them on the local repeaters here, and in the winter months you can get a good static buildup on the antennas from the dry air on a windy day. Before the ICE arrestors were on there you could crackling and popping, now its all gone!

Oh, and the wire splice you asked about that i mentioned, its a device which clamps onto the existing wire without cutting it and then you can add another wire. Its like a tap basically, but the existing wire goes into a slot and then you tighten the set screws, and then the added wire goes into another hole with a set screw. I don't know what their exact name is, but i have used them before for connecting more than one ground point together. If you wanted you could also just wrap the added wire around the existing wire and then solder the whole works together. Just take some steel wool and shine up both pieces of wire before wrapping it to help make a good connection.

Then just apply some flux, grab some solder, and fire up a torch. Taking all fire precautions of course.. lol

Some argue soldering it, so i wouldn't doubt that might become a subject of debate. But here is how i look at it, i got water pipes in my house that have been soldered together for 30 years and they are still solid!

You could put that grounding box i used from DX Engineering on the side of the house by your cable demarc box and then ground it to the new rod outside. That is if your planning on running the coax down in that same location.

 

[prcguy]

I believe Polyphaser is the superior lightning protector. They have (or had) a lightning simulation lab and their products were developed and tested in a high lightning area where they were subjected to direct hits. They also have the most respected books on lightning protection in the business. When I visit commercial mountain top repeater sites all I see is Polyphaser and I have only seen ICE products on ham equipment here and there.
prcguy

Wow, looks like the discussion got going after my last post! Sorry guys got busy this week and didnt have time to get back until tonight.

All good info so far!

I'll step back just a bit to comment on two things. The question about running a ground to a water pipe on the first floor, i believe it was to a bathroom water line. They do recommend that you connect nearest the entry point of the water line, however, i take the side of others that something is better than nothing! Just realize that your not going to be perfectly grounded.

Arrestors for coax, ICE vs Polyphaser... Go with the ICE products. I wish i had them on all my coax runs from the tower, maybe someday i will be able to afford swapping them out one at a time. I got a good deal on the gas arc plug ones i have in place now, and it was better to put them in than nothing at all and waiting until i can afford something better. The advantage with the ICE models is they provide a constant drain for static buildup as well. We have them on the local repeaters here, and in the winter months you can get a good static buildup on the antennas from the dry air on a windy day. Before the ICE arrestors were on there you could crackling and popping, now its all gone!

Oh, and the wire splice you asked about that i mentioned, its a device which clamps onto the existing wire without cutting it and then you can add another wire. Its like a tap basically, but the existing wire goes into a slot and then you tighten the set screws, and then the added wire goes into another hole with a set screw. I don't know what their exact name is, but i have used them before for connecting more than one ground point together. If you wanted you could also just wrap the added wire around the existing wire and then solder the whole works together. Just take some steel wool and shine up both pieces of wire before wrapping it to help make a good connection.

Then just apply some flux, grab some solder, and fire up a torch. Taking all fire precautions of course.. lol

Some argue soldering it, so i wouldn't doubt that might become a subject of debate. But here is how i look at it, i got water pipes in my house that have been soldered together for 30 years and they are still solid!

You could put that grounding box i used from DX Engineering on the side of the house by your cable demarc box and then ground it to the new rod outside. That is if your planning on running the coax down in that same location.

 

[kb0nly]

I believe Polyphaser is the superior lightning protector. They have (or had) a lightning simulation lab and their products were developed and tested in a high lightning area where they were subjected to direct hits. They also have the most respected books on lightning protection in the business. When I visit commercial mountain top repeater sites all I see is Polyphaser and I have only seen ICE products on ham equipment here and there.
prcguy

Polyphaser is NOT superior. You want to know why you see it on all the commercial sites and you only see ICE products on ham gear?? Because hams aren't dumb enough to spend 2-3 times as much on an arrestor for the brand name on it!

I trust ICE, we have them on our repeaters and i have heard from others that they had a hit on the tower and the inside of the ICE box sounded like a baby rattle, but the equipment connected was still purring along and all they needed to do was put another arrestor inline and back on the air. That speaks volumes to me!

The other problem with Polyphaser, no continuous protection from static charge. The Polyphaser only fires to ground with higher transient voltages. The ICE provides a constant discharge to ground. Ever hear cracks and pops on the local repeater, usually static discharge on the antenna system arcing over somewhere. We have seen burn marks on duplexers from nearby strikes, and i have seen pictures of the inside of duplexer cans where static discharges have blackened the surface slightly around the connections.

Sorry, but Polyphaser isn't any different than the $20 gas arc plug arrestors i have on my system, they just cost more because of the brand name!! I think one ham website still has the internal pictures of a Polyphaser on his website, i will see if i can find it, there was talk of removing them because the company was threatening him over displaying pictures of the inside of the Polyphaser compared to the inside of the ICE arrestor. I plan on changing over everything here to ICE arrestors as i can afford it. I have their rotor/control cable arrestors now, the coax ones will get replaced one by one.

 

[petey_racer]

A lot of erroneous information in this thread. Hopefully I can clear some of that up.

there should be a seperate 8' ground rod, the quality of the water pipe is not a good ground if there are any couplers or joints of any kind. there probably is at least 1 shut off.

Not exactly true. A water pipe is an EXCELLENT "ground" if done properly. By this I mean the pipe MUST be in contact with the earth for at least 10', and the connection made within 5' of where the pipe enters the house. Fittings (other than plastic) have no effect on this.

The NEC (National Electrical Code) stipulates that there be a ground at the meter........
No electrical inspector will let the meter ground slip past him on a new install.

Absolutely not true. The meter pan is the territory of the power company, even though we install them. They are locked and not accessible so they are typically taboo for connections since they must remain accessible.
Most power companies disallowed grounding connections inside meter pans long ago.

If you are not having an inspection a cold water ground on any part of a copper house pipe system would be fine you are not carrying any large amperage load to the grounding electrode you are just trying to equalize the potential at all grounded points.

If the pipe entering the house is metallic this last advice is dead wrong. See my above comments.
If the pipe entering the house is metallic it MUST be used as an electrode. If the pipe entering is mot metallic then yes, you can connect anywhere accessible since this is not a grounding electrode connection. It is simply a water pipe bond.

Is a water pipe that is not the main line into the house but still connected to the main water line considered a ground?

NO, it is not.

Would clamping onto that line from a ground rod be considered bonding?

Yes it is. Anything beyond 5' is NOT an acceptable source of ground since any portion after 5' is NO longer a grounding electrode.



On the topic of antenna grounding, sink at least one dedicated rod for the antenna and bond it to the house's grounding electrode system according to the NEC.
NEC 810.58 covers this which refers us to 810.21
810.21(F) & (J) are the important ones.


810.21 Grounding Conductors &#8212; Receiving Stations
Grounding conductors shall comply with 810.21(A) through 810.21(K).

(A) Material The grounding conductor shall be of copper, aluminum, copper-clad steel, bronze, or similar corrosion-resistant material. Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum grounding conductors shall not be used where in direct contact with masonry or the earth or where subject to corrosive conditions. Where used outside, aluminum or copper-clad aluminum shall not be installed within 450 mm (18 in.) of the earth.

(B) Insulation Insulation on grounding conductors shall not be required.

(C) Supports The grounding conductors shall be securely fastened in place and shall be permitted to be directly attached to the surface wired over without the use of insulating supports.
Exception: Where proper support cannot be provided, the size of the grounding conductors shall be increased proportionately.

(D) Mechanical Protection The grounding conductor shall be protected where exposed to physical damage, or the size of the grounding conductors shall be increased proportionately to compensate for the lack of protection. Where the grounding conductor is run in a metal raceway, both ends of the raceway shall be bonded to the grounding conductor or to the same terminal or electrode to which the grounding conductor is connected.

(E) Run in Straight Line The grounding conductor for an antenna mast or antenna discharge unit shall be run in as straight a line as practicable from the mast or discharge unit to the grounding electrode.

(F) Electrode The grounding conductor shall be connected as follows:
(1) To the nearest accessible location on the following:
a. The building or structure grounding electrode system as covered in 250.50
b. The grounded interior metal water piping systems, within 1.52 m (5 ft) from its point of entrance to the building, as covered in 250.52
c. The power service accessible means external to the building, as covered in 250.94
d. The metallic power service raceway
e. The service equipment enclosure, or
f. The grounding electrode conductor or the grounding electrode conductor metal enclosures; or
(2) If the building or structure served has no grounding means, as described in 810.21(F)(1), to any one of the individual electrodes described in 250.52; or
(3) If the building or structure served has no grounding means, as described in 810.21(F)(1) or (F)(2), to an effectively grounded metal structure or to any of the individual electrodes described in 250.52

(G) Inside or Outside Building The grounding conductor shall be permitted to be run either inside or outside the building.

(H) Size The grounding conductor shall not be smaller than 10 AWG copper, 8 AWG aluminum, or 17 AWG copper-clad steel or bronze.

(I) Common Ground A single grounding conductor shall be permitted for both protective and operating purposes.

(J) Bonding of Electrodes A bonding jumper not smaller than 6 AWG copper or equivalent shall be connected between the radio and television equipment grounding electrode and the power grounding electrode system at the building or structure served where separate electrodes are used.

(K) Electrode Connection Connections to grounding electrodes shall comply with 250.70.

 

[oneirish]

Question

I have a large cable hanging down about 2 feet in my crawl space, below where the electrical panel is located on the outside of the house. The cable is coming out of what looks like a heavy metal pipe going up into the concrete block wall.
The crawl-space end has a thick, flat spade with two holes in it, obviously for bolted connections. In fact, one of the holes has another 2" diameter, jacketed, stranded copper wire connected to it, but is only about two feet long and the other end is not connected to anything, just stranded copper wire skinned back a few inches.

Below this is the gas pipe that feeds the dryer - you can clearly see where the stranded wire was connected to the gas pipe at some point long ago. The coupler and strap are still on the pipe. No other rods or pipes of any kind are anywhere near this wire.
House is circa 1958, original wiring think with some updated wiring in the kitchen and office. The cable I'm referring to though has clearly been there a long time.

My question - is this the main ground for my house electrical panel? The metal spade part looks like some kind of galvanized metal or steel. I can't see where it runs to but unless it somehow goes back into the ground from the block wall, I can't see how it is much of a ground.


I know this may be to obscure a description or a silly question - I can take a picture of it if anyone thinks it would help them identify it?

Thanks!

 

[petey_racer]

A pic would be great.

 

[oneirish]

Actually our neighbor the electrician came over and said it was a 'convenience' ground from the main power co. that they used to put in awhile back, unsure if connected to the electrical panel or not but it is indeed a ground.

I forgot he was a retired electrician before I posted - sorry. But all solved. Thanks!

And thanks petey racer for finally clarifying the grounding debate and giving us the code to help.