Indianapolis - IN - High Tech Burglary Ring uses Scanner Radio App and RadioReference

[W9NES]

Thanks Viper 43.That is my point !!!!!

 

[asphaltkid]

hmmmm

Ihope this does not dampen the ability to be informed and ruin our hobby.

 

[kb2vxa]

"hopefully law makers dont try and make new laws against scanners, scanner apps becuase of this."

There are two sides to that coin. On one side lawmakers jump on every opportunity to make new laws to justify their existence and on the other every state already has laws based on the federal statute making it a felony to use any kind of radio apparatus in the commission or the facilitation of a crime. It all depends on who gets to court first, the prosecutors or the legislators.

You're right about one thing however, things like this are an open door to encryption which is why I keep telling you to keep your mouths shut. Trouble is the media has such a big mouth nothing can keep it shut so don't be surprised when the day comes you'll be deleting channels from your scanner's memory like I have been doing.

That reminds me of a funny that fits rather well. A couple of years ago I heard the county narcotics strike force come out with this.
Unit 1: Are you in communications with (city)?
Unit 2: No, these guys have scanners.

I'll wait until you get up off the floor, I can hear you laughing all the way over here!

 

[chrismol1]

wow, more uninformed media twisting something to make a big story

 

[W9NES]

Can you say "Probable Cause" for a arrest for use of a illegal scanner. This is what a Ipad phone is when the Scanner App is used in a commision of a crime.You cannot have this in Indiana as per Indiana Law Indiana Code IC 35-44-3-12. They key words here are a Receiver that is "Receiving Police Radio Freqs".Granted you cannot program the scanner App but you are hearing a Rebroad cast of a Police Scanner.Funny I walked into a Radio Shack Store and the first thing the guy behind the counter asked me was the following--I see you have a cell Phone, Who is your carrier? Would you like to hear all types of Police and Fire Radio Traffic in our area? I smlied at him and told him the following"Thank You My answer is NO and no I do not need to hear Illegal Police Radio Transmissions on a cell phone" I walked out of the store and have never been back in the store.!!!!!

 

[ScannerDude244]

Isn't there a 30sec delay on the streams?

 

[newsnick175]

Knowing what I know of local TV news, this was the cops leading the reporter and his editor by the nose. There was no real effort to find some objective facts about what the cops said. Cops hide behind "oh, we can't reveal how we know this" and local reporters won't press them on anything for fear the will lose a "scorce". News producers need stories to fill the time between comericals, so "get it done quickly...we need your camerman for another story" is there answer to "I need to dig deeper".

Even if this gang was trying to use some kind of police monitoring to commit crime, they failed! Just as they all will. To use this as a selling point for encryption is the biggest Red Herring ever. Even bigger then Saddam's WMDs

 

[kb0uxv]

Scanners in cars is also illegal here in Minnesota (unless you have a ham license). I am a patrol deputy in our county and came across scanners a few times a year, mostly in meth user's cars. These guys don't work so the only way to support their addiction is to steal, around here its mostly copper. We joined the statewide ARMER P25 trunked system a few years ago (I am the county administrator). I was very excited about the change because the meth heads can't afford the $500 trunking scanner let alone know how to program it. I have never found one of the trunking scanners in a criminal's hands yet. Its a good deal because the methers don't listen anymore on scanners, but the hobyists still can listen in since they can figure out the new scanners.

However, these darn smart phone applications are out now and the methers are using them. Its very easy for them to do so. As soon as one or two figure it out, the word spreads and now many of them are using it. I wish the people that stream these apps consider the negative side of the coin. Our county is fortunate in that we don't have a stream on here yet (our neighbors do), but I know it is only a matter of time until we do. I am pushing hard for adding encryption to subsriber radios to defeat this, but for Motorola radios thats $1100 upgrade per radio for DES-OFB and a large expense for the tax payers.

 

[DaveNF2G]

I don't think anyone is being critical of the police? To me it just seems strange that the are not being very forth coming on how they actually caught these mutts. I still think it was just dumb luck, but I could be wrong.

Nothing strange about it. Details of the investigation will come out at trial, not before. Smart cops don't give away prosecution evidence to the media before the case comes up.

 

[radioman2001]

"Nothing strange about it. Details of the investigation will come out at trial, not before. Smart cops don't give away prosecution evidence to the media before the case comes up."

Actually it sounds more like what newsnick175 said, they lead the press around and let them do the police's bidding. If the police wanted to let information out ahead of time to meet their needs it would be done, but this sounds more and more like a case of pure dumb luck on their part as to how they caught these mutts. Having worked alongside NYPD for over 10 years I can tell you that more than likely it is as I said.
I don't want to start another flame war as every post about encryption turns into, but again the public should be able to hear normal, non sensitive traffic. This is to ensure that their agency is doing them right. Our police chief understands this, all sensitive traffic is on MDT, and normal dispatches are in the clear. I can tell you the people of my town got an ear full when one of our officers had a suspect under gun.
I think it is unfortunate that Indiana law prohibits scanner possesion, but based on the info written here by kb0uxv's , that law has enough holes in it to driver a Mack truck through. The law hasn't caught up to the technology yet, a cell phone app isn't receiving police frequencies it is receiving police transmissions. Any lawyer will easily prove that. It maybe written incorrectly and is in need of updating. Hopefully to something that makes more sense and allows the public to listen.

 

[Viper43]

I was very excited about the change because the meth heads can't afford the $500 trunking scanner let alone know how to program it. I have never found one of the trunking scanners in a criminal's hands yet. Its a good deal because the methers don't listen anymore on scanners, but the hobyists still can listen in since they can figure out the new scanners.

However, these darn smart phone applications are out now and the methers are using them. Its very easy for them to do so. As soon as one or two figure it out, the word spreads and now many of them are using it. I wish the people that stream these apps consider the negative side of the coin. Our county is fortunate in that we don't have a stream on here yet (our neighbors do), but I know it is only a matter of time until we do. I am pushing hard for adding encryption to subsriber radios to defeat this, but for Motorola radios thats $1100 upgrade per radio for DES-OFB and a large expense for the tax payers.

Be glad your not im my area or I'd be pushing to get you out of a job! I despise anyone who pushes encryption as it only hurts the police in the long run. You worry more abourt a few lowlife punks than concerned citizens who listen to scanners and actually help police. More police are helped by scanner listeners than criminal acts caused by users. In fact only 1% of criminals use scanners to avoid the police, and thats one heck of a small number, and not worth the expense of encryption, and definately not worth the loss of all those eyes and ears of the listening public!
The cell phone aps are no issue either, between the built in delay and then internet delay they can't really use it to help themselves....again, encryption is wasted money to defeat it.

 

[jbas]

Well said Viper. If they got caught with them it must not be helping criminals. If anything it gives them a false sense of security. Taxpayers pay for cell phones so why not just use those for secure information.
I think it would be nice to have all those extra eyes when there is a BOL out for something. It is too bad when public officials think that if they go encrypted it will solve all the communication leaks. If someone wants to receive communications for illegal purposes they WILL find a way to do it. Those are the people I would be worried about. It is kind of like the saying over the gun control debate "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns". Just something had to get off my chest after I read the post a few posts back. I personally think that it is nice to be able to know which roads to avoid because of an accident, or when an ambulance or fire truck is going to be in the area I am in. Just my two cents.

 

[ts548]

However, these darn smart phone applications are out now and the methers are using them. Its very easy for them to do so. As soon as one or two figure it out, the word spreads and now many of them are using it. I wish the people that stream these apps consider the negative side of the coin. Our county is fortunate in that we don't have a stream on here yet (our neighbors do), but I know it is only a matter of time until we do. I am pushing hard for adding encryption to subsriber radios to defeat this, but for Motorola radios thats $1100 upgrade per radio for DES-OFB and a large expense for the tax payers.

Good for you man. This is happening all over the country, people as might as well get use to it because it's coming.

 

[Viper43]

Well said Viper. If they got caught with them it must not be helping criminals. If anything it gives them a false sense of security. Taxpayers pay for cell phones so why not just use those for secure information.
I think it would be nice to have all those extra eyes when there is a BOL out for something. It is too bad when public officials think that if they go encrypted it will solve all the communication leaks. If someone wants to receive communications for illegal purposes they WILL find a way to do it. Those are the people I would be worried about. It is kind of like the saying over the gun control debate "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns". Just something had to get off my chest after I read the post a few posts back. I personally think that it is nice to be able to know which roads to avoid because of an accident, or when an ambulance or fire truck is going to be in the area I am in. Just my two cents.

I guess I have helped the police several hundred times since 1980 when having a scanner around, but the best one was a couple years ago. I was headed home and heard a bank robbery, I got the descriptio of the guy but didn't think anything more of it until a week later when driving not far from my home, 20 miles from the place the bank was hit. I see a guy walking down the road and suddenly it hits me this guy, his clothes, jacket and backpack match the guy who hit the bank. I called the police and within minutes three different departments had the guy at gunpoint. By the time I came back through that area they had him cuffed and in back of one of the cars. Turned out he WAS the guy! They had him with the gun he used too. He figured he was safe to get out of the state. He'll be a resident a few years longer though because I heard the description.
Like you too though I avoid areas that hear theres an accident or fire or police action. Why put them or myself in a situation and if I can avoid it thats just one person/vehicle they don't need to deal with. Indiana has that archaic scanner law that needs repealled and allow more people to have them in public. I think the police attitude is sad, but whats funny is those who push for encryption then whine when their scanner can't pick up their own department!

 

[kb2vxa]

I thought I'd said it all but something really caught my attention.

"To use this as a selling point for encryption is the biggest Red Herring ever."
I couldn't agree more but then there's this:

"I am a patrol deputy in our county ... I am pushing hard for adding encryption to subscriber radios to defeat this..."
That's a good idea ONLY if your higher-ups have enough brains to know when to use encryption and when to transmit in the clear.

Simply put I agree with the FCC mandate to encrypt "all transmissions of a sensitive nature" but who determines what is sensitive and what is not? Some agencies have reserved encrypted channels for sensitive operations leaving the rest clear so the bad guys are locked out while allowing the general public to monitor and assist in passing information thereby being an asset to law enforcement which is a good thing. Trouble is some encrypt everything believing the public is an enemy which is a bad thing.

Red herring is right, that selling point in the wrong hands (and it's hard to find the right ones these days in law enforcement being they often put the salesman ahead of common sense) diverts attention from the real issue, locking out the REAL bad guys when the monitoring public is an ASSET to law enforcement, not an enemy!

OK, this has gone around RR so many times it sounds like a broken record and frankly as such quite a useless endeavor. Here's something for you to ponder rather than hashing it over here, how about contacting and educating law enforcement agencies contemplating upgrading radio systems? IMO you can do some good for both law enforcement and the monitoring public all in one shot and be proud you did something constructive rather than wasting your time with useless banter here.

 

[kb0uxv]

I am not against the public scanning law enforcement, I stated that in my original post. I expected the criticism here due to the nature of this website (focused on radio enthusiasts). To be honest, we will not encrypt the mains, only tac talkgroups. As is the case now for our investigators. The talkgroups are forced to the CKR so there is no way you can transmit in the clear on those talkgroups, despite the switch position on the radio. The radio is also told it can only go encrypted on those talkgroups. I feel DES-OFB is very secure, I think it would be nearly impossible for anyone not in a three letter government agency to break it. Plus we change our keys often. Cell phones don't work well when you need instant communication, it is not practical to use phones for sensitive communication in a tactical scenario. There is a need for quick and secure communications in this profession.

I also agree that the law does little good as a deterrent, the criminals will use the scanners anyways despite the law. I guess its kind of like the concealed carry / gun debate, the bad guys will carry no matter what. The only nice thing about the law is it allows us a criminal charge and the ability to take the scanner away. If I ever come upon a mether with a $500 trunking scanner I will very much enjoy taking it. Its a nice tool, and seldom enforced on the good guys. I like the ham radio loop hole, I know of people who became a tech to have the scanner and were very glad they got into the hobby.

 

[Viper43]

yeah but the ignorant law deny's the law abiding citizens, and not ALL hams are law abiding citizens either. I wonder how many times the FCC actually runs a criminal history check on ham license applicants? So the "loophole" could actually allow a criminal legal access to scanners, and what cops going to check each amature they stop to see if they have a criminal history?
What states who want to have laws against scanners need isn't blanket laws that keep everyone from having them at home, on the road or at work is a law that instead makes it a felony to use one either in the commission of a crime or while committing a crime, not just being stupid and saying you can't have one in your car or the like. that driver may see a hit and run suspect and be able to call it in....but only IF they are allowed to have their scanner in their car while driving to work, the store or doctors. If that driver heard the description and area they would be alert to a problem too, not just hit and runs but all kinds of things. Who knows, it may save some family from being caught up in a pursuit or sitting stuck in traffic at a crash. These scanner laws are really a detriment to law enforcement AND citizens, so make the use of a scanner during commission of a crime a felony just as using a gun is, and leave the legal users alone to listen no matter where they are!