Integrating Outside Portables with an Existing Motorola System

[simpsonrrnick]

Hello all,

I volunteer with a railroad and logging museum and I've taken on the challenge of being our radio man. I have a very rudimentary knowledge of VHF and UHF radios, and most of my self-taught knowledge falls short of the task I'm trying to accomplish. I figure this would be the place to go for help on the matter.

Our equipment uses Motorola CM200 Radius units (ABZ99FT3046, 146-174mhz variant). I am attempting to integrate portable radios into what appears to be a private system for as little cost as possible. My experiment transceiver is a Baofeng UV-5R. I've used the scan function to locate the three frequencies we use(as opposed to dropping several hundred dollars on the Motorola RSS to find them that way) and that's where I've encountered an issue.

With my UV-5R set on the frequencies I located, I hear nothing but static when I transmit on the railroad CM200s, regardless of frequency. No voices. On the other end, when I transmit on my portable, the CM200s do not receive. I've done some digging and I believe this is attributable to our 200s using TPL or DPL privacy procedures(correct if wrong). I've run through all the included CTCSS and DCS frequencies/codes on the Transmit section(not the RX section) and I had no luck getting through on the CM200s.

Do the CM200s want matching codes for Tx and Rx to let my portable in?

Would there be another privacy procedure I'm missing?

Am I doing something else wrong?

Is there no way to integrate a radio like a UV-5R into a private Motorola system like the one described?

Most importantly: Am I going to need to drop $400 on RSS to make the system compatible?

Thanks in advance,

Nick

 

[clbsquared]

Yes, when using PL or DPL codes, the radios need matching codes. The reason you're hearing something on the UV5R is most likely because you have it set to just CSQ. Unless you have the correct code programmed into the UV5R, the CM's will not unmute. You should also check to see if the CM200's are using wideband (25KHz) or Narrowband (12.5 KHz).

 

[Thunderknight]

Are you sure they aren’t CM200D? The D indicates DMR digital. I’m thinking you might have DMR radios because you said when they transmit, you hear static on the UV5. If it was PL/DPL issue, you’d hear either nothing (squelched) or the voice (if you have the right Tone or the UV5 in carrier squelch. - and assuming you have the right frequency).

 

[K4EET]

Are we sure that is not transmitting digital? I don't have access to translate ABZ99FT3046 but a Google search says The Emissions Designator 11K0F3E signifies a wireless radio which transfers data over a modulated wave using Single analog channel signal.

<edit> The emission designator was matched to that model...

 

[WA0CBW]

What is the FCC call sign as that might help us figure out what you have.

 

[tyler3328]

Take it to a Moto shop and let them read the device info. That will the the 100% for sure way you know what to program. You could be TX DMR vs analog. Or if you’re running repeated then the repeater can have an offset or be running different pl/dpl on the TX and RX sides. Look into a littler better device then a baofeng. You can get quality Moto gear for a few hundred.

 

[n1das]

Are we sure that is not transmitting digital? I don't have access to translate ABZ99FT3046 but a Google search says The Emissions Designator 11K0F3E signifies a wireless radio which transfers data over a modulated wave using Single analog channel signal.

<edit> The emission designator was matched to that model...

11K0F3E is narrowband analog. From looking up FCC ID: ABZ99FT3046 on www.fccid.io, the mobile radio is analog only, wide and narrow bandwidth capable.

Our equipment uses Motorola CM200 Radius units (ABZ99FT3046, 146-174mhz variant). I am attempting to integrate portable radios into what appears to be a private system for as little cost as possible. My experiment transceiver is a Baofeng UV-5R. I've used the scan function to locate the three frequencies we use(as opposed to dropping several hundred dollars on the Motorola RSS to find them that way) and that's where I've encountered an issue.

With my UV-5R set on the frequencies I located, I hear nothing but static when I transmit on the railroad CM200s, regardless of frequency. No voices. On the other end, when I transmit on my portable, the CM200s do not receive. I've done some digging and I believe this is attributable to our 200s using TPL or DPL privacy procedures(correct if wrong). I've run through all the included CTCSS and DCS frequencies/codes on the Transmit section(not the RX section) and I had no luck getting through on the CM200s.

The UV-5R is a cheap Chinese radio (CCR) and is a total POS. It is the worst of the CCRs. You get what you pay for. The radio probably cost less than $5 to make. The receiver front end is broad as a barn and overloads very easily from strong nearby signals. The radio will unsquelch on many frequencies not anywhere close to the correct frequency. Using the scan feature to try to locate the frequencies is not the way to do it. You need the Motorola RSS or CPS and programming cable to do it right or take it to a Moto shop as others have said.

Also as an FYI, the UV-5R is only legal to transmit with on the ham bands by licensed hams in the USA. The UV-5R is NOT legal to transmit with on the railroad frequencies and other non-ham freqs, even if already FCC licensed for those freqs. You can get quality Moto gear for a few hundred that already is fully FCC type accepted and squeaky clean and legal for your use.

Good luck.

 

[mmckenna]

Hello all,

I volunteer with a railroad and logging museum and I've taken on the challenge of being our radio man. I have a very rudimentary knowledge of VHF and UHF radios, and most of my self-taught knowledge falls short of the task I'm trying to accomplish. I figure this would be the place to go for help on the matter.

Welcome to the site.

I can appreciate your desire to save some money on this, but there's a couple of things you need to be aware of.

-FCC licensing is required. I'm guessing the museum you volunteer with has a valid FCC license for the frequencies you are using. I'd —STRONGLY— suggest you do some research on that first. The FCC license will provide information you need to have before proceeding. It's not uncommon for licenses to be forgotten about, allowed to expire, or never applied for in the first place. The FCC does not give a free pass for volunteer organizations or groups operating on a low budget.

-The FCC is very clear that the only one permitted to authorize adding radios to an existing FCC license is the licensee. The licensee is the person who's name is on the license. Again, no exceptions to this rule. Find the FCC license and make sure you talk to who ever holds it. Make sure they are OK with this. Make sure the license is valid, not expired and up to date. Make sure that whatever you do with the radios falls under the requirements of the FCC license.

-The FCC license will tell you what frequencies they are licensed for. Use -only- those frequencies in the radios. There are no 'free' channels.

-There are technical requirements that must be met. All the radios you use under that license need to have FCC Part 90 equipment authorization. A lot of the BaoFeng and similar radios do NOT have FCC Part 90 equipment authorizations and would not be legal to use on these frequencies. It doesn't matter if the radio can be made to work there or not, if it does not have the FCC authorization, it would be in violation of the rules to use it to transmit on these frequencies. That puts the person holding the FCC license at risk for fines. Don't be the guy responsible for that.

-There are a lot of settings that need to be correct to not only make the radios work right, but also be legal. Some of these radios can be set to wide band FM, which is no longer permissible to use under most FCC licenses. The radios you said you are using are VHF, and all must be set to use narrow band.

-I understand you are trying to save money, but there is some value in making sure what you do meets the license requirements and the radios you use meet the technical requirements. It's unlikely the FCC is going to show up at your door, but there are requirements in place and they can levy some hefty fines if they do. Those fines will cost WAY more than what you'll spend on a proper radio.

Programming them yourself isn't a problem. But you do need to have the right information, the right equipment and you do need to stay within the confines of the license. We're happy to help, but you've got some work to do:
You need a copy of the valid FCC license.
You need to have permission from the FCC license holder.
You need to have proper Part 90 approved radios.

Not hard to do that, but it will cost you some additional money to get the right radios. Steer clear of the Cheap Chinese Radios. I know the price is attractive, but trust me, you are getting less than what you are paying for.

 

[simpsonrrnick]

Wow! I didn't expect that much response so soon! Thank you all very much!

Regarding call signs and licenses, I believe our three frequencies fall under Mr. mmckenna's "never applied for" category as I'm unable to locate any licenses for the frequencies(or even approximations/multiples) I manually located. Given stories I've heard about how the company who's heritage we're trying to preserve operated(Simpson Timber Railroad for those who may care), it doesn't surprise me that licenses weren't filed for.

Going off information I've gleaned from this thread, it looks like my best course of action is to get the frequencies off our CM200s, attempt to file licenses for those and then sort out portables. It would seem like I've got my work cut out for me so I'll probably be back with more questions at some point.

Once again, thank you all for your assistance and tips for this newbie.

Nick

 

[mmckenna]

it doesn't surprise me that licenses weren't filed for.

Not ideal, but not uncommon.

Going off information I've gleaned from this thread, it looks like my best course of action is to get the frequencies off our CM200s, attempt to file licenses for those and then sort out portables. It would seem like I've got my work cut out for me so I'll probably be back with more questions at some point.

Your first step would be to do one of the following:
1. Contact a reputable radio shop in your area (or more than one and compare prices). A radio shop can do the legwork required to get your group a license.

-or-

2. Contact a Frequency Coordinator and start with them.

The first step in obtaining this sort of license is to start with frequency coordination. This is where they work with you to figure out what your needs are. They'll then do a search for usable frequencies that won't cause interference to other licensed users. Since you already have VHF gear, they can hopefully find you some VHF frequencies that will work with your existing radios.

Once they have signed off on the frequency coordination, applying for the license is the next step. Unless you have done this before, it's a good idea to work with the frequency coordinator or radio shop as the forms can be complex and not easy for the newcomer. Paying someone to do the licensing can save you a lot of time and hair pulling.

Industrial / Business Licensing

LicensingIndividuals or entities desiring to operate on frequencies listed in the Industrial/Business Pool are required to obtain a radio station license for these frequencies.Below is some helpful information to aid you with the licensing process.

www.fcc.gov

Click on the Frequency Coordinators tab.
Scroll down.
If your operation involves running locomotives, you may want to research getting one or more of the AAR channels. You'd start with a railroad specific frequency coordinator:
AAR Frequency Coordination
Transportation Technology Center, Inc.
Attn: James Reimer, Frequency Coordination
921 South Palomar Drive
Pueblo West Colorado 81007
P: 719-252-0732
F: 719-584-7145
E: coordination@aar.com

For operations that are not on the railroad, then you'd just use a regular business frequency coordinator.
IMSA is pretty easy to work with:
International Municipal Signal Association (IMSA)
122 Baltimore Street
Gettysburg, PA 17325
P: 717-398-0823
P: 855-803-1465
F: 717-778-4237
E: michelle.fink@frequencycoordination.org

None of it will be free, but it's not horribly expensive. Doing it right the first time is always cheaper than the alternative.

 

[mmckenna]

Simpson Timber has a couple of expired FCC licenses. Looks like the last one expired in June of 2001.
Only one of them was for VHF frequencies, and it appears to have been only used/licensed at a paper facility in Anderson California.

ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WNWB741 - SIMPSON TIMBER CO DBA SIMPSON PAPER CO

 

[simpsonrrnick]

If your operation involves running locomotives, you may want to research getting one or more of the AAR channels. You'd start with a railroad specific frequency coordinator:
AAR Frequency Coordination
Transportation Technology Center, Inc.
Attn: James Reimer, Frequency Coordination
921 South Palomar Drive
Pueblo West Colorado 81007
P: 719-252-0732
F: 719-584-7145
E: coordination@aar.com

Thank you for that. We plan to regularly run our locomotives in the near future, so having AAR channels will come in handy.

I've dug through all the licenses registered to Simpson Investments properties, but none would have applied to the radio system we've inherited. Thanks for doing a double check, though.

I truly appreciate all this information, this thread has exponentially increased my knowledge of commercial radio. Thank you all!

Nick

 

[xmo]

You didn't indicate what frequencies you identified as being used by the existing radios.

Maybe MURS?

151.820MHz
151.880MHz
151.940MHz
154.570MHz
154.600MHz

 

[simpsonrrnick]

You didn't indicate what frequencies you identified as being used by the existing radios.

Maybe MURS?

151.820MHz
151.880MHz
151.940MHz
154.570MHz
154.600MHz

150.5875
151.6125
160.8375
These are the ones I located using my aforementioned UV5R. They may or may not be exact based on n1das' info.
Cross-referencing the third one puts me within one step from AAR channel 048, which is actually what our connecting railroad used to use to contact the former company's train dispatch office.

Nick