Lakewood, NJ: Kids on 2-Way Radios Interfere With Emergency Calls

[PJH]

What many are missing is called the parents who have the radios, and the offshoot of the Hatzolah EMS (jewish EMS) and if in NYC Shormin.... it comes down to parents letting their kids play with radios like toys.

When I lived in that neck of the woods, you would not believe how many parents (and in a certain area Jewish parents) would let their kids play with the phone and call 911. Then, when you call back and confront the parents its "not my kid" and when you leave... you get more 911 calls.

Plain and simple, parents need to put important stuff away and secured and start taking some responsibility.

 

[lep]

What is an illegal ham radio?

Their used to be booths at all large hamfests at which, for a fee paid on the spot, one could have an amateur HT modified to transmit on other frequencies outside authorized amateur bands. You could pay, leave your HT, and come back later in the day and pickup the Modified radio. Now it seems, the China maker has made that step no longer necessary. BTW, the FCC engineer who specialized in smashing radios was name Jerry Freeman, since he is deceased I guess it does no harm to mention his name.

 

[902]

Some other FCC field office people have achieved legendary status. Another guy northeast of W4JJ (SK) used to park at airports and listen to unicom traffic, then try to cite the pilot for not putting the N in front of the tail number. I'm not sure how much of a legal standing there was for putting a hammer to equipment or coerced compliance. But that was a different age. I'm still struggling to imagine what he found to be illegal. HTs with crystals for volunteer FDs? Most of the early stuff was not very frequency agile.

 

[PJH]

Somewhere in the regs, it is still illegal to program radios with licesned freqencies that you are not licensed for or that you do not have permission from the licesee - and I believe that included receive freq's. Scanners were never an issue as it was a receiver only and obviously not capable of transmissions.

Ham and commerical radios, obvsiously can.

Back in the day, it was much more difficult when that rule was implemented. Now with computer programmed everything... it most likely applies much more than it did then.

 

[jaymatt1978]

Ah yes blaming an object for someone elses stupidity, never fails, Look Baofang needs to write into their manuals the penalties for non-authorized, however I have to tell you about a letter to the editor I read a few months back, maybe longer. It was right after the Sandy Hook shootings. As you can imagine there were h undreds of letters calling for stricter gun control laws. One law-abiding gun owner had enough and wrote a really clever response. In it he ba sically said one day have tried something, he loaded a shotgun, and left iT on his front proch. The shotgun just sat there didn't shoot anyone. All day kids walked by it, even looked at the gun, nobody was hurt, the gun didn't even go off once. There it stood loaded ready t o go. Why? kThey knew the gun wasn't a toy
Moral of the story TEACH KIDS TO USE radios the right way. Too many times the radios are blamed for OPERATOR ERROR!

And this is why I will not ever support Baofang and the other cheap china radio manufacturers.

In this instance, I don't blame the kids or the parents. The kids didn't know they were doing anything wrong, and the parents that bought the radios probably had no idea what these radios are capable of doing. Almost ALL ads online for Baofang radios make no mention of a license being needed, or that they are Amateur and Public Service radios. I've seen them advertised online in the sporting goods section!!!

You know who I blame? Everyone that buys these damn radios, including fellow hams. Every purchase of them tells Baofang and the FCC that we support the idea of these cheap, unlocked radios being sold in the US.

And before someone jumps on that bandwagon that almost any 2/70 amateur radio could do this with modification - you're right, they can. The difference is the Baofang's come this way out of the box. Turn them on and punch in a frequency and go, no mods needed.

 

[bpv]

Yikes! Look at the ERP on WQQK520! Their coordinates are a little off from the water tank.

I also should point out (as the news report alludes to public safety) that this is a business frequency, not a public safety frequency. As such, just about anything can pop up on it, even legally.

Hmm, would love some more details on this. 4wt radios with zero-gain antennas overpowering/causing interference to their system, do they employ CTCSS or DCS.

Did the kids somehow get on the repeater or the input (not the output channel)?

Did the parents program the radio, or were they simply using them with the preloaded test frequencies that came from the factory?

The license indicates several emmision(s) modes other than analog, are they or will they be using the digital modes NXDN/TRBO (11K2F3E, 4K00F1W, 7K60FXE, 8K30F7W)

 

[aaron315]

Perhaps a couple of Amateur Radio Ops in the local community could reach out to the family or families involved and invite them to learn to use their radios in a constructive and legal manor. Seems like a wonderful 'teachable moment' to me for all involved.

 

[SCPD]

Kids on 2-Way Radios Interfere With Emergency Calls

I think the parents should be slapped with some fine from the FCC. Maybe That ambulance service should upgrade to digital radios but even then you can still get interference.

I have a lot of young kids in my area with GMRS/FRS radios. I have a really nice pair of Motorola T9500's two ways and I get a lot of annoying kids on pretty much every channel so I have to set privacy codes every time, really should of waited to get my hands on that new digital set that coming out next month


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[ElroyJetson]

I recently deprogrammed a bunch of M/A-Com radios that came from a PUBLIC auction of surplus city property. A local used radio dealer bought up the whole bunch of radios and I got the job of checking them out and deprogramming them.

Every single one of them was still programmed and live on the system. And not only that....a few of them had access to encrypted talkgroups and still had valid encryption keys in them!

The only thing that kept that from being a probable DISASTER for the city, with a bunch of live radios running around in the hands of who knows whom, is that they were FORTUNATELY bought by a responsible dealer in used radios and the deprogramming of them was handled by a responsible technician who has NO wish for such radios to get into the hands of the wrong element. That technician being me.

With mistakes like that, a city doesn't NEED crappy Baofeng radios in the hands of kids to cause problems! The city is quite capable of creating its own problems!

If the dealer had not shown up for the auction or some guy with deep pockets and the will to cause mayhem had bid higher, the
outcome would have been MUCH different, and qualify as a disaster.

 

[MTS2000des]

Hmm, would love some more details on this. 4wt radios with zero-gain antennas overpowering/causing interference to their system, do they employ CTCSS or DCS.

Did the kids somehow get on the repeater or the input (not the output channel)?

Did the parents program the radio, or were they simply using them with the preloaded test frequencies that came from the factory?

The license indicates several emmision(s) modes other than analog, are they or will they be using the digital modes NXDN/TRBO (11K2F3E, 4K00F1W, 7K60FXE, 8K30F7W)

UHF standard offset is either +5 or +3MHz, not hard to figure out. The Bafengs defaults to +5MHz.

They currently use analog conventional (note the UHF HT1250 pictured in the story).

Glad to hear they have licensed for modern digital modes. Moving to NXDN or TRBO with encryption will eliminate the future intrusion by 12 year olds with their toy radios from China.

Maybe one of these vendors will donate a nice round of modern digital radios and infrastructure. I am sure they can take a nice write off in exchange for their advertising on those ambulances.

 

[rapidcharger]

Maybe one of these vendors will donate a nice round of modern digital radios and infrastructure. I am sure they can take a nice write off in exchange for their advertising on those ambulances.

Maybe Baofeng will donate to them and wrap their ambulances with a picture of 12 year olds playing on $30 walkie talkies in their treehouse and underneath they will unveil their new slogan; "Baofeng... For the inner paramedic in all of us".
Think of all the radios they'd sell then and all of the free press coverage. "When your phone goes dead because Verizon wants to do away with copper lines, you can call directly for help on a ..... Baofeng!"

 

[n4yek]

And this is why I will not ever support Baofang and the other cheap china radio manufacturers.

While I don't like them either, it's not their fault that someone uses them illegally. That's like saying ban a particular handgun because a kid was shooting it.

You know who I blame? Everyone that buys these damn radios, including fellow hams.

Everyone??? Wrong.

Every purchase of them tells Baofang and the FCC that we support the idea of these cheap, unlocked radios being sold in the US.

The FCC cleared this radio to be sold in the US, it's up to the people to use them correctly.

Some years ago there used to be an FCC engineer who would come to ham gatherings and give folks he found using "illegal" radios the option of (a) receiving a citation or (b) letting him smash them with a hammer he carried in the trunk of the car.

Like jhooten stated, what's an illegal ham radio? As for him smashing any of my radios, not going to happen without an official court order and he better have "proof" before he handed me a citation. What was the FCC engineer doing, spying on the people? You must have belonged to a questionable ham club with that many members doing illegal things.

Their used to be booths at all large hamfests at which, for a fee paid on the spot, one could have an amateur HT modified to transmit on other frequencies outside authorized amateur bands.

That doesn't make them illegal, transmitting on frequencies outside of the ham band is illegal usage but the radio isn't illegal.
What do you think "M.A.R.S." operators use on HF??? They certainly don't use purpose made radios for those freqs, they use modified ham radios, some might even have surplus military radios.

They gave em back to the parents so they can transmit on the EMS band. That's how smart city and county officials are sometimes.

They gave them back because they had too, ONLY the FCC can ask you to forfeit your radios with court orders. That is their jurisdiction, that's like counties telling a ham operator he can not erect a tower in his yard. The FCC says that is their jurisdiction, not any local governments. Anything that has to do with radio emissions has to be delt with by the FCC, plain and simple.
The captain of the EMS knew there was nothing he personally could do, the reporter asked" What are you going to do to try and stop this" His response " I intend to reach out to some of the publications and ask them to make people aware...A) that this is happening B) the potential consequences...(where the rest of his answer was cut off).
He would have to call the FCC to file a complaint about the interference, the FCC would take it from there.

Perhaps a couple of Amateur Radio Ops in the local community could reach out to the family or families involved and invite them to learn to use their radios in a constructive and legal manor. Seems like a wonderful 'teachable moment' to me for all involved.

Best answer.

 

[lep]

[QUOTE


Like jhooten stated, what's an illegal ham radio? As for him smashing any of my radios, not going to happen without an official court order and he better have "proof" before he handed me a citation. What was the FCC engineer doing

That doesn't make them illegal, transmitting on frequencies outside of the ham band is illegal usage but the radio isn't illegal.
What do you think "M.A.R.S." operators use on HF??? They certainly don't use purpose made radios for those freqs, they use modified ham radios, some might even have surplus military radios.


)[/QUOTE]


As for your first point what the FCC engineer was doing was just walking around observing like any other paid admission visitor at the [former] Miami Hamboree (R) in the olde days. There were several booths at which a vendor with a visor mounted magnifying glass and micro-soldering iron was busy accepting payments for a modification to the HT radio to permit out-of-band operation. Thus destroying the FCC type acceptance of the radio.

Also, a very long time ago (when I was a CPT in the Reserve and a Signal Officer) I used to use a purpose made radio for MARS, so there were such things besides modified ham radios.

Finally, the FCC engineer didn't DEMAND that you surrender your radio for destruction, he gave the offender the OPTION of receiving a Citation <or> letting him smash the radio. Too bad you weren't there, as a stand around observer I was always waiting for some one to take an 'attitude' but I never saw it happen.

On final point, do you remember when Western Electric model 500 phones said on the bottom "property of the Bell System, not for sale"?

On another occasion Bell System folks showed up at the Hamboree with a station wagon and drove around the flea market seizing those telephones as "stolen." Before you tell me they needed a Court Order, I should advise they had US Marshalls with them as armed backup!

 

[Bill1957]

Kids on two-way radio.

I thought any radios that were for commercial/public safety were not allowed to be sold un-locked. Also thought that these radios were not supposed to have a vfo? When you can buy these radios for$ 48.00 that's going to be a problem. I wonder if the rash of intentional interference to ham repeater systems are the result of these radios becoming so prolific. They are available on e-bay and Amazon by the hundreds!
Why did the FCC allow these radios to be imported in the first place?
Just a thought.

 

[n4yek]

As for your first point what the FCC engineer was doing was just walking around observing like any other paid admission visitor at the [former] Miami Hamboree (R) in the olde days. There were several booths at which a vendor with a visor mounted magnifying glass and micro-soldering iron was busy accepting payments for a modification to the HT radio to permit out-of-band operation. Thus destroying the FCC type acceptance of the radio.

Ham radios don't have to be type accepted, if they were no one would ever be able to "HOMEBREW" their own equipment.
They have to be to commercially sell it, even if they modify it they can still use it as long as it meets part 97 regulations, but after that it is up to the operator to operate it correctly

Also, a very long time ago (when I was a CPT in the Reserve and a Signal Officer) I used to use a purpose made radio for MARS, so there were such things besides modified ham radios.

What was it? I would like to look it up and see it.

Finally, the FCC engineer didn't DEMAND that you surrender your radio for destruction, he gave the offender the OPTION of receiving a Citation <or> letting him smash the radio. Too bad you weren't there, as a stand around observer I was always waiting for some one to take an 'attitude' but I never saw it happen.

Yes it is too bad, for neither would have been done.

On final point, do you remember when Western Electric model 500 phones said on the bottom "property of the Bell System, not for sale"?

On another occasion Bell System folks showed up at the Hamboree with a station wagon and drove around the flea market seizing those telephones as "stolen."

Good for them, it was plainly printed on them as their phones

Before you tell me they needed a Court Order, I should advise they had US Marshalls with them as armed backup!

Oh so funny.. :lol:
I can see it now, the US Marshall pulling his gun and saying " Give us the phone!!!!" Talk about a police state.

I'm done commenting on this thread, have a nice day.

 

[nd5y]

I thought any radios that were for commercial/public safety were not allowed to be sold un-locked. Also thought that these radios were not supposed to have a vfo? When you can buy these radios for$ 48.00 that's going to be a problem. I wonder if the rash of intentional interference to ham repeater systems are the result of these radios becoming so prolific. They are available on e-bay and Amazon by the hundreds!
Why did the FCC allow these radios to be imported in the first place?
Just a thought.

Apparently the fact that it is possible to set the radios to only use the memory channels and not the VFO isn't a reason to deny certification.

 

[lep]

N4YEK wrote: "What was it? I would like to look it up and see it"

The only radio I have left that is suitable for MARS (I resigned my Reserve commission and MARS membership) is a 150 W HF transceiver, IC-M700 TY which is frequency agile, FSK or SSB. The PDF manual is still available on the web, it was never intended for the amateur services and it is not ex-military.

 

[gewecke]

I see this problem only increasing.

First it was the FRS/GMRS bubble packed radios, then the Marine blister packed radios.
And now the cheap imported radios capable of going into the public safety bands.

Complaints from the GMRS community should have been a early warning sign.

In one evening, the value of my GMRS repeater was reduced to zero by alert tones, whistling and kids babbling. At one point their dog even got in on the action as they tried to coax the dog to come to the radio.

I shouldn't complain though.....my $2K is only a drop in the bucket compared to the investment that the amateur radio and public safety communities have at stake.

Nobody saw this coming ?

Just a suggestion, try using a inverted dpl which the bubble pack crap can't do AND a transmit delay as well.
Your babbling will be gone.

73,
n9zas

 

[riflemin]

I think Im preaching to the choir when I say that Malicious Interference (M/I) goes with the territory. It's gonna happen. Anybody who has used "two-way" radio on the job or as a hobby has personally experienced or heard M/I. The question is how do you deal with it? Not all of it comes from "outsiders" to a radio system. Several years ago the local Sherrif VHF freq was being jammed by someone sitting on his mic. Turned out to be an authorized user (wrecker driver). During the event some fellow hams decided it was coming from me, since I once owned a radio I used on the job (Security) for PD interop (authorized). Did they DF the signal? No. But beyond that I think that radio system users need to have measures in place to find interference quickly, and most just DO NOT have the means. The idea that the FCC can find all the violators seems far fetched. Are the radio vendors who sell Public Safety or business radio systems offering Interference mitigation as part of the package? Perhaps this is a need that some of us could fill as a paying carreer?
While I am not a big fan of these Chinese radios, this is not a new problem. In a world where everybody including the people paid to enforce the rules break them, the threat tha the FCC will get you seems kinda hollow. I personally follow the rules out of respect for others. Disrespect towards others is at the root of the problem.

 

[ElroyJetson]

I thought any radios that were for commercial/public safety were not allowed to be sold un-locked.

I presume you mean keypad programmable. Never heard of any other form of lock, so to speak.


As a civilian I have bought brand new top tier public safety radios directly from nationwide dealerships without any problem whatsoever.

I haven't attempted to do it but I believe that if I wanted to spend the (large amount of) money required to do so, I could find one or more dealers that would be happy to sell me brand new Motorola APX7000s with P25 Phase II TDMA trunking and AES encryption, and also Harris Unity XG-100s with the same features.

There is no law prohibiting the sale of any given radio (unless it has Type 1 encryption algorithms in it) to civilians in the US. That may not be true in other countries.

Software? Not a problem. Again, I can buy it if I want to. The only sticky point comes when you try to get access to software keys that would allow access to some trunking systems. THAT, you might not be able to get. Probably not. That stuff is restricted to the agencies that buy those systems.