Littleton Accident, problems onscene
- Thread starter jimmnn
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Littleton U/D: Scene is getting ugly real fast, CSP has prevented R-13 from transporting a pt, now is threatening to tow all LFD units onscene, Batt-1 already onscene now Chief of the dept and EMS Chief enroute from home and CSP Capt being called out.
Now talking about possibly arresting firefighters for "interferance" holy cow, can't we all just work together.
Jim<
Now talking about possibly arresting firefighters for "interferance" holy cow, can't we all just work together.
Jim<
Alright, so what happened????
Gad-zooks. What sparked all this? Why was CSP refusing to allow transport of a patient??
MikeyB
Member
Isn't Littleton a home rule city? Santa Fe & Mineral is in Littleton, so wouldn't LPD have been involved? Please post a news link, if one comes up. I want to know what was going on!
RFsponge
Member
Jim-
What does H/O stand for? I don't find it in the MNN guide.
Gotta wonder if it involved the Governor or the Mayor or something... Extending professional courtesy to a unreasonable level, perhaps. I dunno. Very curious.
Thanks!
Rob
What does H/O stand for? I don't find it in the MNN guide.
Gotta wonder if it involved the Governor or the Mayor or something... Extending professional courtesy to a unreasonable level, perhaps. I dunno. Very curious.
Thanks!
Rob
H/O = Head-on "apply directly to the forehead" 
jfab
Member
I've checked 9News, Fox31, CSP, SMFR, and CBS4 and can't find any info. Anyone having better luck??
RFsponge said:
H/O = Head On
Started as a typical 3 car head on MVA with limited extrication, then for some reason a discussion ensued regarding the transport of a possible intoxicated driver, CSP felt it was ET0H and he needed to go to jail and the medics were concerned about a possible head injury.
Then the stories begin to differ drastically but it sounds like a heated face to face and possibly even physical confrontation occurred. One side saying that the trooper prevented Rescue-13 from transporting then another heated discussion ensured regarding placing a hold on all the LFD equipment on scene and then calling a large wrecker for Action Care ambulance (which I don't ever think happened).
Batt 1 was already on scene but Chief of the Dept Mullin and EMS Chief Zygowicz were called and responded code 3 from there homes.
CSP Capt and PIO also were notified and responded from home.
Many fingers can be pointed and conclusions made but we don't have any where near all the facts folks so let's please hold off speculating.
Jim<
RFsponge
Member
Checking...
I work for Channel 4 and have started the process of us looking into it. If we find out anything, I will definately post it here ASAP.
I work for Channel 4 and have started the process of us looking into it. If we find out anything, I will definately post it here ASAP.
jfab
Member
RFsponge said:
Thank you much!! Maybe it's just me, but I'm suprised that no one has said anything about this(CSP,FD, news). It sounds pretty serious and if you are a news agency, a good story! Or are these things kept under wraps by the first responders?
jfab said:
You'd be surprised at the "things" that happen everyday across the state and are never reported by the media.
Also no reason to check SMFR as they were not involved, other than helping to cover other LFD as many of there resources were tied up.
Jim<
RFsponge
Member
The official story
Sorry this took a while guys. I'm in the middle of a bunch of different things at the moment...
Every agency involved is pretty tight-lipped about this and are referring media inquiries to the CSP Public Information Officer. That decision was apparently made last night by cooler heads that arrived on-scene and calmed things down and to control the flow of information to the media. There is a meeting scheduled for next Thursday to discuss this incident between all the agencies involved. Nobody was willing to tell me when and where that meeting will take place.
Here's what I've been able to scrape together from various official sources: This occured at Coal Mine and Pierce, which explains why Littleton PD wasn't involved. According to CSP, it was a one vehicle crash involving a suspected DUI driver. The driver was administered a test by portable breathalizer. It's results indicated impairment, but not enough for a DUI charge. At some point, a single trooper and a single Littleton Firefighter got into it about transporting the driver to a hospital or not. I cannot tell you what, if any, medical complaint the driver did or did not have. Beyond that, all CSP will say it that the incident is "under investigation" and that the media is "making a mountain out of a molehill." The trooper I talked to was very professional and has a long history of dealing with the Denver media and knows that defining the proportions of mountains and molehills isn't up to him. (Kudos to him for trying, though) CSP also confirms that no emergency vehicles were towed, no firefighters were arrested and the patient, who was arrested, was NOT transported to a hospital. Read: Jail.
CSP: 1
LFD: 0
I can give you third-hand, unofficial information that their disagreement did escallate to the silly point of calling in tow-trucks for emergency vehicles Specifically the Batt Chief's Suburban and a heavy wrecker for one of Littleton's engines. (How'd you like to be a tow truck driver and get that call in the middle of the night?) The arrest of firefighters was also threatened. I cannot confirm how many people threatened to make arrests, and how many were threatened with arrest. Jeffco has an "assist to other agency" report filed regarding this, but has no details of the incident. I'm assuming this guy went to the Jeffco Jail, and is probably out by now. That is only my assumption.
I can tell you that since there were no firefighters arrested and no emergency vehicles towed, Channel 4 isn't persuing this story for tonight. (11-22) Just for grins, after Thanksgiving, I'm going to get a copy of the CSP crash report and the green sheets from the Jeffco jail and see if there's any other info to glean out of them. If I find anything of signifigance, I'll post it here. If anyone is aware of some kind of long-standing bad blood between Littleton Fire and CSP, or other extended conflicts between any other emergency services, please e-mail me and tell me what you know. If it affects the efficiency of Public Safety agencies in the performance of their duties, it's a story that needs to be out there. But if this is an isolated incident where two guys just had a disagreement, it probably is a molehill...
Thanks all I've got. Happy Thankgiving!
Rob
P.S. Jim- You are absolutely right about speculating. Way too easy to go off on tangents in this forum. My apologies. I should know better. (Didn't have my coffee yet.)
Sorry this took a while guys. I'm in the middle of a bunch of different things at the moment...
Every agency involved is pretty tight-lipped about this and are referring media inquiries to the CSP Public Information Officer. That decision was apparently made last night by cooler heads that arrived on-scene and calmed things down and to control the flow of information to the media. There is a meeting scheduled for next Thursday to discuss this incident between all the agencies involved. Nobody was willing to tell me when and where that meeting will take place.
Here's what I've been able to scrape together from various official sources: This occured at Coal Mine and Pierce, which explains why Littleton PD wasn't involved. According to CSP, it was a one vehicle crash involving a suspected DUI driver. The driver was administered a test by portable breathalizer. It's results indicated impairment, but not enough for a DUI charge. At some point, a single trooper and a single Littleton Firefighter got into it about transporting the driver to a hospital or not. I cannot tell you what, if any, medical complaint the driver did or did not have. Beyond that, all CSP will say it that the incident is "under investigation" and that the media is "making a mountain out of a molehill." The trooper I talked to was very professional and has a long history of dealing with the Denver media and knows that defining the proportions of mountains and molehills isn't up to him. (Kudos to him for trying, though) CSP also confirms that no emergency vehicles were towed, no firefighters were arrested and the patient, who was arrested, was NOT transported to a hospital. Read: Jail.
CSP: 1
LFD: 0
I can give you third-hand, unofficial information that their disagreement did escallate to the silly point of calling in tow-trucks for emergency vehicles Specifically the Batt Chief's Suburban and a heavy wrecker for one of Littleton's engines. (How'd you like to be a tow truck driver and get that call in the middle of the night?) The arrest of firefighters was also threatened. I cannot confirm how many people threatened to make arrests, and how many were threatened with arrest. Jeffco has an "assist to other agency" report filed regarding this, but has no details of the incident. I'm assuming this guy went to the Jeffco Jail, and is probably out by now. That is only my assumption.
I can tell you that since there were no firefighters arrested and no emergency vehicles towed, Channel 4 isn't persuing this story for tonight. (11-22) Just for grins, after Thanksgiving, I'm going to get a copy of the CSP crash report and the green sheets from the Jeffco jail and see if there's any other info to glean out of them. If I find anything of signifigance, I'll post it here. If anyone is aware of some kind of long-standing bad blood between Littleton Fire and CSP, or other extended conflicts between any other emergency services, please e-mail me and tell me what you know. If it affects the efficiency of Public Safety agencies in the performance of their duties, it's a story that needs to be out there. But if this is an isolated incident where two guys just had a disagreement, it probably is a molehill...
Thanks all I've got. Happy Thankgiving!
Rob
P.S. Jim- You are absolutely right about speculating. Way too easy to go off on tangents in this forum. My apologies. I should know better. (Didn't have my coffee yet.)
A little of topic, but this may demonstrate how conflicts sometimes start..
A few years ago, CSP 2B got a new commander ( I do not recall his rank). One of the first things he did was to lay down an edict that under NO circumstances were fire and/or EMS (frequently the same agency) to be dispatched to MVA's that had "unknown injuries". This was done without consulting the various FD's and EMS providers in El Paso County. Needless to say this caused QUITE a bit of uproar, especially when the first time any of the agencies heard of the policy was when the county dispatch agency let the agencies know of the policy. You can imagine the uproar. His justification was that he didn't want fire apparatus and ambulances on the highways (especially I-25) causing further traffic tie-ups when they weren't necessary. If assistance was needed, the trooper would call for it when he got on scene. Of course, the question came up: how do we know when they're "not necessary"? At the time, 2B had far fewer troopers than it does now, and it was not unheard of for a trooper to take well over 30 minutes to get to a MVA.
Things progressively got uglier between the various agencies and the 2B commander. The FD's felt that they were not providing the services that were owed to their taxpayers, and of course there is always the trauma "Golden Hour". The dispatch agencies were stuck in the middle, because they had to ask many more questions of the RP's (which for a wreck on I-25 could be many, many 9-1-1 calls) to try and figure out if someone was injured.
After a while, the dispatch agencies erred on the side of the FD's and sent them if there was any remote possibility of there being any injuries. This started some pretty bad confrontations between the FD's and troopers.
The commander was invited to a meeting with the county fire chiefs, and it didn't go well. He also found out the hard way about the political clout of the fire chiefs in the county (there are 30-some FD's in the county), and calls were made to higher ups at the CSP and to the state house. In 6 months he was gone... The rule was never implemented again.
Sometimes what one person thinks is a good idea turns out not to be. Sometimes there are misunderstandings, or sometimes things just aren't executed in the best way possible, and things go to crap in a hurry....
A few years ago, CSP 2B got a new commander ( I do not recall his rank). One of the first things he did was to lay down an edict that under NO circumstances were fire and/or EMS (frequently the same agency) to be dispatched to MVA's that had "unknown injuries". This was done without consulting the various FD's and EMS providers in El Paso County. Needless to say this caused QUITE a bit of uproar, especially when the first time any of the agencies heard of the policy was when the county dispatch agency let the agencies know of the policy. You can imagine the uproar. His justification was that he didn't want fire apparatus and ambulances on the highways (especially I-25) causing further traffic tie-ups when they weren't necessary. If assistance was needed, the trooper would call for it when he got on scene. Of course, the question came up: how do we know when they're "not necessary"? At the time, 2B had far fewer troopers than it does now, and it was not unheard of for a trooper to take well over 30 minutes to get to a MVA.
Things progressively got uglier between the various agencies and the 2B commander. The FD's felt that they were not providing the services that were owed to their taxpayers, and of course there is always the trauma "Golden Hour". The dispatch agencies were stuck in the middle, because they had to ask many more questions of the RP's (which for a wreck on I-25 could be many, many 9-1-1 calls) to try and figure out if someone was injured.
After a while, the dispatch agencies erred on the side of the FD's and sent them if there was any remote possibility of there being any injuries. This started some pretty bad confrontations between the FD's and troopers.
The commander was invited to a meeting with the county fire chiefs, and it didn't go well. He also found out the hard way about the political clout of the fire chiefs in the county (there are 30-some FD's in the county), and calls were made to higher ups at the CSP and to the state house. In 6 months he was gone... The rule was never implemented again.
Sometimes what one person thinks is a good idea turns out not to be. Sometimes there are misunderstandings, or sometimes things just aren't executed in the best way possible, and things go to crap in a hurry....
RFsponge
Member
We're still persuing it. Nothing new to report at this time, but it is on our radar.
RFsponge
Member
Anything new, I'll be sure to post it here ASAP.
Rob
Rob
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