Manatee county sheriff dept

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scannerfreak

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I've been gritting my teeth in my attempt to restrain myself. Steve, thanks for speaking out so others didn't have to. Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Mods, how about some moderation? Why does it always get this far without any intervention? Why do us lowly peons have to be the ones to speak out?


We can't be everywhere all the time :cool:

We rely on the members to report posts they feel there is an issue with. In the future, please use the report post icon and report the post and a Mod will be along to check it out :)

With that said, lets put an end the bickering and personal attacks..
 
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Bolt21

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We can't be everywhere all the time :cool:

Sorry. Sometimes it just seems like clockwork that there's a poser stirring up caca on this forum - gets old and frustrating. I'll try to remember that the icon is there and use it in the future. Thanks for your response.
 

tampabaynews

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So we should take all guns away just like some are "taking scanning away" [encryption]? That is a dumb argument. Outlaw guns, criminals will still have them and law abiding citizens will loose out on a hobby and the ability to protect themselves from armed criminals. Same argument you are using for scanning, you would loose out on a hobby and the ability to "protect/inform" the public. What's your point with the guns?

Encrypt transmissions and at least you have a pretty good bet that nobody will hear them.

There is an inherit "threat" posed by people misusing scanners just like there is threat from guns being misused. It is undeniable. Want to rob a bank? It would be nice to know where and when most of the units are tied up on the other side of town. How do you find out that info? The DISPATCH channel!!! It is a simple argument that can not be denied. We argue in our hobby that the threat posed by misuse is small and we should keep comms open for the 95% of citizens with good intentions. All we can do is hope our argument suffices, it has where I live, some places are more draconian about it.

I'm not accusing you directly but the "news media" and "news media as the protectors/informers of the public" attitude is the reason I hear cited most by officers who favor encryption. Look at the states with the most encryption and they are also the ones with the most tabloid, BS TV news programs ie Florida. Watch the news in Florida and all you see is footage of this car accident, that stabbing, the other shooting, the chase, etc. Find some real news please, this crap happens all the time and its everywhere. I'm talking minor car accidents as lead stories. You guys wanna play the BS "we protect and inform the public" card, then just tell people to listen to scanners, cut out the middlemen who usually get it wrong to begin with or spin it to get ratings. Your goal is money not protecting people. Cover real news stories and the occasional bank robbery/SWAT call out heavily and use your scanning resources to do it but stop showing up at every stupid, minor routine scene to get pictures. You are not helping your cause there and it only pisses off the cops.

The cops get sick of media crawling up their a$$ all the time with their 25 scanners running and making dangerous scenes more dangerous. Unfortunate part is after they encrypt, they usually give a monitor only radio to the local tabloids so they have effectively ruined it for the rest of us but not themselves. Keep up the good work guys!

I'm sorry you failed to see my point. In short, If we had strong opposition to support our hobby then I'm sure putting pressure on public safety agencies who want total encryption would benefit us all. But many of us have the "oh well" attitude and are not willing to defend their hobby. It was not meant to insult gun owners, I was stating that there are bigger fish to fry than scanner users. I think money spent on encryption would be better used to pay for more officers/deputies/troopers, or even fairly compensate the ones that are already hired, or even better, not lay them off.

You stated that you aren't accusing me, but you say YOU quite a lot. I don't report the stories, I shoot video and hand it over. Yes, one of my goals is money as with most people who work, anywhere. I don't know about you... but I have bills. I need to eat, a place to stay, and buy my girlfriend flowers once in awhile. If doing my job pisses off law enforcement then I'm sorry they feel that way, because I respect what they do. As long as I'm not breaking the law, opinions are just opinions and nothing more.

I find it completely asinine that you think the media is ruining the hobby. If law enforcement officials are really saying that that news media is the main motivation for total encryption, then it's not being done for the right reasons, such as crime prevention. Personal perceptions should not have an effect on professional practices, as I learned while working in law enforcement myself in previous jobs. Also, if total encryption is being done because of the media, then why the heck would they give them radios? Therefore, I do not believe that you actually hear that from law enforcement one bit.

If you don't like what's on your local news, then don't watch it silly. I was always taught "if it hurts, don't do it."
 

scg

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I imagine law enforcement probably dosen't like their communications broadcast live on the internet also which leads to encryption.
 

sjlamb

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I imagine law enforcement probably dosen't like their communications broadcast live on the internet also which leads to encryption.

I think that this is a very accurate statement and very downplayed issue. I would also venture to guess that live feeds are probably the number 1 reason that LE agencies feel compelled to encrypt. Internet feeds have completely eliminated the learning curve and scanner complexity issue that the average scumbag would have to overcome in order to use a scanner for nefarious purposes.

With a combination of Nextal units and live feed monitoring, even a total pudding head could keeps tabs on LE.
 

jack3726

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I am going to look at this the another way, I am going to look at it from the standpoint that agencies are spending dollars on these systems(past-present-future). Even in lean times I am sure allot of agencies are signed up to promote and grow the systems that they have spent dollars on, I am also sure the sales guys want to make more money and are either promoting the products they sell or bolt on(s) or whatever the case may be. None of what these agencies do surprises anyone at any given time, I don't hear the mayor of Bradenton nor the county commissioners of Manatee saying, 'HEY were going PRO-VOICE" My point is with all of this it must just be plain dumb luck when we find out that these things are happening and then we find out(the hard way). I do agree that online scanning may be in some cases a pain for some agencies to grasp but to me it is no different than having a scanner in your car, listening is listening. I think what needs to happen is to design newer radios that can de-crypt etc. If no new techology is going to come about for the listener then eventually maybe the listening days are numbered.
 

tampabaynews

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I am going to look at this the another way, I am going to look at it from the standpoint that agencies are spending dollars on these systems(past-present-future). Even in lean times I am sure allot of agencies are signed up to promote and grow the systems that they have spent dollars on, I am also sure the sales guys want to make more money and are either promoting the products they sell or bolt on(s) or whatever the case may be. None of what these agencies do surprises anyone at any given time, I don't hear the mayor of Bradenton nor the county commissioners of Manatee saying, 'HEY were going PRO-VOICE" My point is with all of this it must just be plain dumb luck when we find out that these things are happening and then we find out(the hard way). I do agree that online scanning may be in some cases a pain for some agencies to grasp but to me it is no different than having a scanner in your car, listening is listening. I think what needs to happen is to design newer radios that can de-crypt etc. If no new techology is going to come about for the listener then eventually maybe the listening days are numbered.

Provice and encrypted transmissions will be monitorable at some point in the near future. Right now, not enough agencies are in the dark to convince scanner makers to look deeper in the technology. I'm sure if most of the country's major cities become unmonitorable, the scanner makers will get the ball rolling. At one time, I heard people though that trunking was the end. I know there are also legal issues involved in developing this new technology as well.
 

scg

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I spoke with an MSO deputy last night and he told me the new system some times works OK and then other times sounds garbled and you can't talk to some one ten feet away. He said the reason for the switch was criminals listening, at which time I said not every one is a criminal. So the pro voice which they spent a ton of money on work no better than the old analog radios. Only difference is now we the criminals can't listen. LOL
 

JoeyC

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I'm sure there are radio geeks in the underworld who are already doing it or are close to.

If so they are lightyears away from being able to do it in real-time rendering any efforts useless for the purpose of scanner users.
It'll never happen.
 

sjlamb

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ProVoice isn't encryption.

Exactly... It's digital EDACS. Encrypted Pro-Voice is encryption.

In my humble opinion..... Like every format before it..... ProVoice will eventually run its' course and become just another monitorable format for higher end scanners (you know... the $500 model); at which point, agencies will need to upgrade to the latest and greatest that public safety radio manufacturers are peddling at the moment. (something like Klingon Triple Heterodyne Vapor Encryption).

If every LE agency in the nation went to ProVoice tomorrow; you'd see a ProVoice capable scanner at next year's CES. It's all about following the $$$. Cash talks and BS walks.

True encrypted comms is another matter entirely and has substanial protections in current case law.
 
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jim202

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Mr tampabaynews let us hear the real way you obtain your information on radio encryption.

I am not sure where your background is coming from, but I would suggest that you do some research
on the subject of encryption. There are a number of different encryption methods available today.
Those that are being used on the newer radios systems are those that have been approved for use
by the federal government. If you think they are breakable, better lay off the pills your taking again.

I have been in the radio field for some 47 years now. Have been in the military working on different
encryption devises over the years. Have seen a number of so called voice scrambling systems
come and go. You need to understand that even NSA will have a problem trying to decode the
encrypted transmissions of the newer radios today. If you don't believe what I have said, make a
few calls to the companies that are selling these systems and get the true information from the
source. After you have done your home work, come back and tell us what you have found.

We all will be waiting to hear the details of what you find on just how easy or hard it is to have
the ability to decode encrypted radio transmissions.

Jim




I'm sure there are radio geeks in the underworld who are already doing it or are close to.
 

cja1987

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I'm sure there are radio geeks in the underworld who are already doing it or are close to.

As others have said, people love to interchange pro voice and encryption. They are not one in the same.

Sure you can decode pro voice and in the future a scanner will decode it. That does not mean anybody has cracked "encryption".

Read up on P25 digital encryption as well as ESK encryption. Take the worlds most advanced supercomputers, like the ones used to run weather prediction models, and it would still take a significant amount of time to find one encryption key for one agency. Then it changes all the time so you have to repeat the process all over again. The time it would theoretically take on a super computer is NOT insignificant either. Change your key faster than the computers can run and you are ahead. Its an easy matter.

Years down the road, will the computing power be there and cheap? Yes. But then they will go to some higher bit encryption and we play the game all over again.

In short, don't ever expect to be able to illegally intercept comms that are actually encrypted with any commercially available product or even any advanced product.
 
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cja1987

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I'm sorry you failed to see my point. In short, If we had strong opposition to support our hobby then I'm sure putting pressure on public safety agencies who want total encryption would benefit us all. But many of us have the "oh well" attitude and are not willing to defend their hobby. It was not meant to insult gun owners, I was stating that there are bigger fish to fry than scanner users. I think money spent on encryption would be better used to pay for more officers/deputies/troopers, or even fairly compensate the ones that are already hired, or even better, not lay them off.

I'm not in favor of full encryption so you don't need to convince me on that, I agree. Good luck trying to sway the PD who just spent all the money though. I'd be willing to write a letter if the issue came up locally but I would not honestly expect them to care.

You stated that you aren't accusing me, but you say YOU quite a lot. I don't report the stories, I shoot video and hand it over. Yes, one of my goals is money as with most people who work, anywhere. I don't know about you... but I have bills. I need to eat, a place to stay, and buy my girlfriend flowers once in awhile. If doing my job pisses off law enforcement then I'm sorry they feel that way, because I respect what they do. As long as I'm not breaking the law, opinions are just opinions and nothing more.

Replace "you" with "the media" and I apologize, I should have been more grammatically consistent. I don't know what YOU do on a day to day basis so I'm not referring to it in any specific manner.

Yes I have bills, I need to eat, etc, etc. What I'm saying is the police have compelling reasons to encrypt for their own safety. They are going to maximize safety for themselves so they can eat, pay bills, support families, etc. If you can't understand that there are in fact legitimate reasons for encryption, you are out to lunch.


I find it completely asinine that you think the media is ruining the hobby. If law enforcement officials are really saying that that news media is the main motivation for total encryption, then it's not being done for the right reasons, such as crime prevention. Personal perceptions should not have an effect on professional practices, as I learned while working in law enforcement myself in previous jobs. Also, if total encryption is being done because of the media, then why the heck would they give them radios? Therefore, I do not believe that you actually hear that from law enforcement one bit.

If you don't like what's on your local news, then don't watch it silly. I was always taught "if it hurts, don't do it."

First of all, I'm not calling you a liar so don't call me one. I don't know if its because of the job you do or just ignorance but I don't see what is so hard to understand about first responders not being happy about media getting in the way at incidents. I work in public safety, I deal with the police "brass" that make the decisions all the time, they constantly ***** about the media showing up based on scanner reports. Are you a first responder? Do you listen to your boss complain about the media doing fairly unsafe things daily? All to cover stories that are totally worthless.

Why give the media a monitor only radio? They are the biggest pains in the ass out there and won't shut up until they get one, that's why. Then maybe it will keep them in their holes at the office trying to figure out whats going on for a bit longer until the scene has been secured. I should not broad brush though, not all agencies do this. I was just thinking of Orlando giving a few radios to news outlets.

Most are not trained in how to act at an emergency scene and if they are, they usually put getting "the shot" before safety. Small sampling from my own short experience:

We had a news SUV park behind a police cruiser at a car vs tree at 3am, only 1 cruiser was on the scene to warn traffic at the time. Blocks out the lights and sets up his tripod on the road side of his vehicle. Mind you he turned all his vehicle lights off as well so it was pitch black. Another drunk came along and took out him, his equipment and both vehicles. Landed him in the hospital for 2wks luckily he's alive. I escaped by mere inches.

An entire film crew running into the back of a burning building at a fire scene. Not 20min later the building collapsed (they were already removed prior to that).

5 stringers completely blocking an ambulance's path down a country road with their vehicles parked side by side.

2 camera guys walking right into the line of potential SWAT fire at a hostage scene. They had to cross 2 lines of crime scene tape to accomplish that one.

Being yelled at by a stringer for standing in the way of his shot at a fatal accident.

The list goes on. I can think of 50+ cases of idiotic news media types showing up on scenes far before they were secure enough for us to feel comfortable not limiting traffic to the areas. Not all media types are bad but multiply my experience by 30 years and its easy to see why police chiefs are fed up with the media being stupid.

I don't have a problem with the media or the job they do, just STUPIDITY and when you take away their ability to scan, alot of the stupidity is delayed and the scene is usually a bit more under control.

I'm not saying I even agree with the people who encrypt because of the media but I'm telling you the vast majority of scanner bashing I hear from the "inside" results from what the media does with the info they hear on them.
 
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tampabaynews

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cja1987, I am not calling you anything. All is said was I don't believe you, that's different from me calling you a liar in my opinion. I do think that there are SOME legitimate reasons for encryption. I do not believe in FULL time encryption, we agree on that. Yes, may be there will never be a COMMERCIALLY available product to intercept those communications, but that doesn't mean that a radio genius can't build a device.

There are indeed some media fools out there, but on the same token there are lots of fools in public safety too. I've had my share of encounters as well. Yes, I do at times put MYSELF in danger to some extent to get dramatic video. I need to due to the nature of my work and I understand my risks. Stringers take more risks than other photographers because we only get paid when we shoot great video. Even so, I have never been arrested. I never cross tape, endanger the lives/property of others, block emergency vehicles, or tamper with evidence. If that makes me annoying, then I'm sorry, those people are too easily annoyed and it wouldn't surprise me if they suffered an aneurysm later in life. Anyway, back to radios...

jim202, just because you claim 47 years of experience and say it can't be done, doesn't mean that someone else with more experience, or different experience can't do it. I hope I'm not wrong for assuming this, but I think there are others out there with a different background in radio than of yourself who may know things you don't. Do the legalities of certain actions stop people from doing them? No. Would a radio vendor ever tell me the encryption they sell to their clients can be cracked? No. I have nothing to prove to you. If you are as well rounded on encryption as you tell us, then why can't you enlighten us in detail? I have no problem learning new things. Finally, the only pills I take are aspirin and a daily multivitamin.
 
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