MBElib, IMBE, AMBE patent questions

[lwvmobile]

Greetings,

Was considering doing some work on open source voice decoding software that's currently out there on Github, and some of the decoding relies on mbelib. The github for mbelib comes with this notification:

This source code is provided for educational purposes only. It is
a written description of how certain voice encoding/decoding
algorythims could be implemented. Executable objects compiled or
derived from this package may be covered by one or more patents.
Readers are strongly advised to check for any patent restrictions or
licencing requirements before compiling or using this source code.

I was attempting to ascertain whether or not certain voice codecs/decoding is currently patented in the United States and whether or not forking, writing, or releases source code for methods to decode voice would infringe on any patents, a.k.a. I'd rather not be litigated into oblivion.

The primary codec I'm interested in is Provoice (which uses mbelib and imbe). I'd like to integrate something like dsd and mbelib into my own project to decode these voices directly, but I am not sure whether or not this is currently under any patent. I looked on google patents, and found this link for MBE, which seems to imply the patent is still active for a few more months, but I am unsure if this is the correct and/or only patent for using mbelib. I had also saw this post in another thread which stated the IMBE vocoder was no longer under any patent, so I didn't know whether this was accurate or not. I seem to find tons of entries on Google Patents for IMBE and AMBE, but they seem to be something that incorporates those technologies and not the patent for the thing itself.

A secondary codec I'm interesting in working on would be NXDN, and was curious whether or not its vocoder is under any active patents currently?

 

[maus92]

NXDN uses the AMBE+2 vocoder, which was developed and patented by DVSI.

 

[Reconrider]

If you really want to go about this, I wouldn't be asking someone on the internet.
I would consult a lawyer about patent laws and have them dig around on what you'll need to make sure you'll be good.

 

[lwvmobile]

If you really want to go about this, I wouldn't be asking someone on the internet.
I would consult a lawyer about patent laws and have them dig around on what you'll need to make sure you'll be good.

Yeah, I'm not about to get a consultation from a lawyer over a little hobby project that may amount to nothing. Just trying to see if anybody had any info or good sources to go on. Believe me, I'm not taking any info I gather as the absolute gospel, just as a general idea.

I do know that scanner manufacturers require the end user to buy the upgrades for different vocoders. I assume that is a licensing fee or royalty fee that's worked out between DVSI and other patent holders and Uniden or whoever makes scanners that follow that business model.

I also know that multiple voice decoding software is freely and not so freely available that decode voice, and none of those seem to have been given a cease and desist or anything, so there's that. I also know that OpenEar pulled their github page due to licensing issues, so there is also that.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

If you are doing this as a hobby, in your garage and have no plans to sell or redistribute the code you are not going to get letters from a patent holder. But if you put it back up on github or distribute it in any way, better have an attorney on retainer.

 

[Reconrider]

Yeah, I'm not about to get a consultation from a lawyer over a little hobby project that may amount to nothing. Just trying to see if anybody had any info or good sources to go on. Believe me, I'm not taking any info I gather as the absolute gospel, just as a general idea.

I do know that scanner manufacturers require the end user to buy the upgrades for different vocoders. I assume that is a licensing fee or royalty fee that's worked out between DVSI and other patent holders and Uniden or whoever makes scanners that follow that business model.

I also know that multiple voice decoding software is freely and not so freely available that decode voice, and none of those seem to have been given a cease and desist or anything, so there's that. I also know that OpenEar pulled their github page due to licensing issues, so there is also that.

I was going to reply again, but seems RFI beat me to what I wanted to say. I do want to note, I wasn't trying to sound like an ahole or any of the other things it might have sounded like, just didn't want you to take the word of "internet people/lawyers". Personal use = who cares || public use = issues for distributing possible patented stuffs - this is where I didn't want you to get in trouble

If you are doing this as a hobby, in your garage and have no plans to sell or redistribute the code you are not going to get letters from a patent holder. But if you put it back up on github or distribute it in any way, better have an attorney on retainer.

 

[kb9mwr]

My best understanding and explantation:

Improving Open-AMBE for D-Star

Software AMBE to augment ham radio

www.qsl.net

The short answer is AMBE+2 (includes NXDN) appears to be coverered by patents till 2028 if you are looking to do/use something outside of the academic context. IMBE expired a few years back 2012 from memory. And there is good working code out there for that and in use by a few different projects.

"I'd rather not be litigated into oblivion."
In todays world of patent tolls and other "legal" fear mongering shenanigans, its just easier to not release anything on the internet with your name.
The likely hood of any one outside of your home state getting a court order to obtain ISP/and website records to collect facts for a case, is 100% unlikely unless what you are doing is eating into the patent holders profit margin (like the DSDPlus guys do).

Even if what you do is 100% legal there are scam artistis looking to scare people into an out of out settlement. My ham club had that concerning some art work (that a past club member designed) on our website.

 

[thewraith2008]

Source code for MBELib has been up on GitHub for 10+ years with 87 forks (also on GitHub).
You would think if this is a problem, it would have been dealt with by now.

DSD+, SDRTrunk and OP25 also continue with out problems.

Executable objects compiled or derived from this package may be covered by one or more patents.

DSD+, SDRTrunk seem to get away with this.

The only take down I've heard of is that OpenEar and I believe that was more the do with circumvention of encryption (and selling it) than the use of "patented" voice codecs.

 

[lwvmobile]

My best understanding and explantation:

Thanks for the link, that's some pretty good reading. Very informative.

I wasn't trying to sound like an ahole

Don't worry, I didn't think you came off as an a-hole.

Source code for MBELib has been up on GitHub for 10+ years with 87 forks (also on GitHub).
You would think if this is a problem, it would have been dealt with by now.

Yeah, that's about what I figured, its been up forever now and nobody really seems to care about it. Its probably one of those things they aren't going to take any action on for decoding audio. If it were in a commercial product with encoding, then they'd probably have something to say. Then again, there seems to be much better open source vocoders so I can't imagine why anybody would actually want to use the patented ones.

 

[KA1RBI]

It's unfortunate that the free codec2 implementation isn't compatible over the air with any extant digital voice modes (p25, dmr, nxdn, ysf, or d-star).

Also, I just continue to find it interesting that of all the "decoder" projects mentioned in this thread, in only one of them are the developers anonymous...

 

[KA1RBI]

Also, I'm not convinced that the so-called "AMBE+2" is the same as the halfrate vocoder that is documented in the p25 specs (the former is apparently used in dmr, ysf, and nxdn, and p25p2)... There are "features" in AMBE+2 that are not publicly documented...

 

[kb9mwr]

Thanks for the link, that's some pretty good reading. Very informative.

Thanks. As thewraith2008 pointed out the source code for MBELib has been up on GitHub for 10+ years. Its fairly trival for sadly even someone who doesn't have the rights to issue to DMCA takedown complaint for things on the internet. Vs trying to take formal court action which is more complicated.

As Max points out, and I have stressed, if you main interest is in making money like the DSDplus guys or the indusic clowns with their boot leg chips then you'll be a target. Anything truely open source is likely not a target and is a benefit for the patent holders to even learn from since there is alway more than one way to do things.

 

[lwvmobile]

if you main interest is in making money like the DSDplus guys or the indusic clowns with their boot leg chips then you'll be a target.

Well, so much for my idea of putting it on the Google Play Store full of micro transactions, loot boxes, NFTs, and pay to play. I have a whole list of features to tease the user base about and never release. Darn, what could have been. Shame.