My thoughts on Florida Public Safety Systems (and monitoring them)

[batdude]

Handled an APX Next for the first time yesterday. What an amazing device. Seamless system access to a P25 trunk hundreds of miles away from the radio.....via cellular.

Yes, I realize there are many of you in the industry who are much more well versed on this topic that I am --- but.

I think the next 5 years in Florida is going to be very interesting in regard to how the "scanner hobby" evolves (or not)

I'll preface that I am only talking about LE / Public Safety type comms in the various large metro areas - Not the rural counties that are somewhat interspersed throughout the state and don't have the millions of dollars to spend on radio systems and subscriber units....

I think that LTE (aka Cellular) is poised to have an extremely wide impact in regard to public safety comms. With the latest radios from Motorola and Harris fully integrating LTE into the subscriber platforms - this could deal a HUGE blow to those who enjoy PS/LE/Fire monitoring - similar to the advent of large, full scale deployment of encryption in several counties across Florida over the last few years - to my knowledge - LTE is "unmonitorable" - perhaps "hackable" with the right tools..... but that is way over my head.

The LTE capability brings P25 systems to life that do not rely on rows of $20k repeaters and multiple $2M towers. There is no "control channel" for DSD+/Unitrunker to decode. There are no "channels to scan" - the RF side rides entirely on the LTE cellular network.

I fully expect the next iteration of SLERS to ride LTE - maybe they'll build out RF sites - maybe not. (The funny part here is that L3Harris could really end up holding the bag here on 200+ tower sites that they own in Florida that are no longer needed..... that could be interesting...)

I fully expect a slow integration of LTE across the large PS trunks in the state with the funds to do so - and I can envision LTE-capable portables driving the cost of subscriber units down exponentially - like Tetra did in the EU. (I was told that the APX Next that I handled was $11k and was not a full-blown unit)

I'm well aware that there are people and decision makers in some of these counties (including my own) that want their own pie - e.g., their own system that isn't fully reliant on a cellular carrier - but in reality, I think the cellular backbone is nearly as reliant as a networked, multi-site P25 system - I'm specifically speaking about power loss and and antenna/infrastructure damage during a hurricane.

Time will tell - but it's going to be an interesting 3-5 years.

 

[mmckenna]

to my knowledge - LTE is "unmonitorable" - perhaps "hackable" with the right tools..... but that is way over my head.

LTE is encrypted by design. It's also a very wide data signal, so pulling just the right packets out of the data stream to listen to just one "channel" is going to be impossible. It would be like me saying I could monitor you watching Youtube on your phone. It's not going to happen. That doesn't even take into account that some LTE cells are quite small, and unless you are on the same cell as the user, you won't even see their packets.

I'm in the design stage of a new 800MHz multi channel/multi site conventional radio system for our PD. It's going to be RF, but it's going to have the Harris BeON integration that will let the radios use LTE/WiFi when they are out of range or inside a building where the radio system will not reach. For my application, it's way, way cheaper than trying to solve in-building coverage with a bunch of BDA's or DAS systems. It also gives us "radio" coverage in places where it is financially unreasonable (and usually not needed).

All the big manufacturers are going in this direction, and everyone in the industry knows where this is heading. Traditional RF will have it's place in public safety, but using LTE to fill in gaps just makes sense.

Radio over LTE makes a hell of a lot more sense for non-public safety users.

Go to a trade show like IWCE or APCO, and you'll see tons of this on display. It's not a "some day in the future" thing. It's a "It's here now and we're using it" thing. Scanner users are going to be left out in the cold with no options to monitor these systems.

 

[GTR8000]

The LTE capability brings P25 systems to life that do not rely on rows of $20k repeaters and multiple $2M towers. There is no "control channel" for DSD+/Unitrunker to decode. There are no "channels to scan" - the RF side rides entirely on the LTE cellular network.

Well, no, not exactly. The LTE/WiFi integration in the current subscribers is meant to be an extension of the RF network, not a replacement for it.

In simplest terms, a gateway connects the P25 core to the Internet, which allows subscribers to use either LTE (FirstNet or Frontline) or WiFi/hotspots to access the trunked system when out of RF coverage, depending on the capability of the subscriber. As long as a subscriber is affiliated with a talkgroup on the RF system, the traffic is still going to be carried over RF network.

Yes, LTE/WiFi/Internet integration is happening, and was inevitable...however it will be a very long time before it completely replaces traditional LMR. For now it's primarily a supplement to the RF coverage, as @mmckenna noted, in particular for in-building coverage where it's more cost effective than installing expensive BDA/DAS.

 

[MTS2000des]

We augment our LMR with SmartConnect. Our schools get better mileage of using their CEN and 10,500 WiFi access points to provide in building solutions where our 800MHz simulcast system can't get, and as a systems manager I'd much rather have them on WiFi than more red box bandits throwing up garbage pail BDAs that cause interference to our LMR. The schools like it too, much cheaper to buy the BN APX6000s and pay the licensing for each subscriber and use them on WiFi than pay hundreds of thousand to install a single BDA in ONE school.

The cost to install a BDA in one of their high schools exceeded $600,000. They bought 100 BNs for much less than half of that.

There is no argument that LTE/cellular will help bridge that gap, but no way I'd entrust it to replace assets we control, we deploy, and we manage. We don't have to share uplink bandwidth with anyone, and have exclusive use of our licensed frequencies with interference protection.

 

[GTR8000]

There is no argument that LTE/cellular will help bridge that gap, but no way I'd entrust it to replace assets we control, we deploy, and we manage. We don't have to share uplink bandwidth with anyone, and have exclusive use of our licensed frequencies with interference protection.

Up here in the northeast, there are many areas where cellular coverage ranges from lousy to flat out nonexistent due to the terrain. Yes, in the NYC metro area in 2023 there are still far too many dead spots to rely on LTE, and we're talking FirstNet/Frontline, not just the commercial coverage. In many of those areas, the local P25 system has devastating -65 to -80 dBm coverage because there is a nearby subsite that was specifically built in "off grid" areas for that exact reason. A subsite that has a public safety grade shelter with a bank of batteries + a genset with ample fuel to run that subsite for 24+ hours uninterrupted.

Yada yada yada, bottom line is that while LTE (or whatever the the next generation/iteration of cellular might be) may ultimately replace LMR in the distant future, that future ain't now. Yes, the LTE/WiFi integration to supplement RF coverage is pretty awesome and an extremely valuable asset, so I'm not crapping all over it, but the usual caveats apply despite all the hype about LTE/FirstNet/Frontline.

 

[kd4efm]

Commercial LMR is what going to take a bigger hit with the PToC becoming the majority. Heck FM 100kw stations are a thing of the past now. Most are now down to 50kw or even 1.2kw translators. "The APP FM"

Writing is on the wall, 10 years 60% anything RF will be LTE Cellular Carrier. Look how much fcc licenses have died down for land mobile. That's what hurts.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I will admit the technology is surpassing the conventional radio systems in capabilities.
But...
Living here in FL I am keeping my personal cache of UHF GMRS and low band mobile equipment in place.
Once you have been through a hurricane event like Andrew, you realize how fragile those towers, power lines and other infrastructure become. There were new towers that collapsed in Andrew that were subjected to unbelievable forces. Welds sheared off the base of towers. Debris wrapped around power poles. Entire runs of concrete power poles broken off. You still need towers whether it is VHF conventional or LTE/magic. The difference is you will need many more towers for LTE. Then lets talk about Hurricane Ian and flooding. The global weather patterns are getting nasty. You cannot build high enough, fast enough here.

 

[DeoVindice]

I will admit the technology is surpassing the conventional radio systems in capabilities.
But...
Living here in FL I am keeping my personal cache of UHF GMRS and low band mobile equipment in place.
Once you have been through a hurricane event like Andrew, you realize how fragile those towers, power lines and other infrastructure become. There were new towers that collapsed in Andrew that were subjected to unbelievable forces. Welds sheared off the base of towers. Debris wrapped around power poles. Entire runs of concrete power poles broken off. You still need towers whether it is VHF conventional or LTE/magic. The difference is you will need many more towers for LTE. Then lets talk about Hurricane Ian and flooding. The global weather patterns are getting nasty. You cannot build high enough, fast enough here.

Beyond that, much of the Southwest just doesn't have LTE coverage due to terrain and simply will not ever - the population doesn't justify the investment. Satellite-based SMS is the best we can reasonably hope for. Even in areas that typically have LTE, outages are concerningly common. That's before we get into the data privacy concerns inherent with dealing with outsourced corporate solutions.

There is simply no substitute for an on-premises encrypted voice system that will work for as long as we can plug a charging cradle into a solar power system. We've been using encrypted LMR ever since we began mineral exploration and development activity and only plan to expand our use, including deploying digital low band from Kenwood or TPL.

Public safety in the region will make similar judgement calls for similar reasons.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Florida Public Safety decision makers are enamored by any new technology and will continue to make technology procurement's that are costly and risky. They are spending OPM (other peoples money). I have seen (over my 30 plus years here) perfectly operating systems replaced multiple times due to vendor planned obsolescence. We have a handful of agencies that have "bucked the system" proving that the "old" can keep going for a decade or more longer, but they are the few.

I was driving around the other day and have started seeing (ugly) black 5G poles around town. In one place, two in one block due to building density.

 

[mmckenna]

Florida Public Safety decision makers are enamored by any new technology and will continue to make technology procurement's that are costly and risky. They are spending OPM (other peoples money). I have seen (over my 30 plus years here) perfectly operating systems replaced multiple times due to vendor planned obsolescence. We have a handful of agencies that have "bucked the system" proving that the "old" can keep going for a decade or more longer, but they are the few.

I have such a hard time at work with this. Unfortunately I'm under the larger IT organization, and they don't easily comprehend the idea of NOT doing forklift upgrades to systems every 5 years.

The idea that a well designed and installed PBX or radio system can last 10-20 years (or more) just baffles them sometimes.
I actually had some in the top tier management levels lean on me to replace things early for no good reason other than "That's what we do in the rest of the organization".

I'm happy to be in the far corner of the organization where we actually repair things rather than just replace them. They can have my multimeter when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

"That's what we do in the rest of the organization".

That reminds me of my first union job (Textile Workers Union of America!! ) where I was refurbishing Xerox machines faster than anyone else and was told to slow down because "you are making us look bad".

 

[mmckenna]

"That's what we do in the rest of the organization".

That reminds me of my first union job (Textile Workers Union of America!! ) where I was refurbishing Xerox machines faster than anyone else and was told to slow down because "you are making us look bad".

Ha,

My dad worked for Xerox for 37 years. My brother, slightly longer.

I was told the same thing when I hired on as a field tech. The other two techs didn't like the new guy getting more tickets done than they did. I was told to "slow down". Thankfully I'm not in the union anymore and I can work at whatever speed I damn well feel like.

 

[Echo4Thirty]

An agency in the Houston area replaces their subscribers every two years. One year they replaced APX6500 AN radios with APX6500 AN radios. Literally the only difference was the firmware version and the level of dust on the radios.

 

[mmckenna]

An agency in the Houston area replaces their subscribers every two years. One year they replaced APX6500 AN radios with APX6500 AN radios. Literally the only difference was the firmware version and the level of dust on the radios.

Does not surprise me in the slightest.

 

[ElroyJetson]

IT does not really have a concept for durable equipment with a usable lifespan measured in decades, or even one decade. Meanwhile, there are almost certainly some rural PDs that are still doing just fine dispatching their VHF police and fire departments on an old 40 watt Mocom 70 base radio.
The future of radio communications is pretty predictable in general terms. More and more services and applications will be subscriber based services on RF carriers that will become increasingly broadband with every new generation. The broadband backbones will grow and fill in the coverage map and bring broadband coverage even out to the most remote rural areas, of course. But for a very long time to come, the highest system capacity and lowest latency will be associated with the major population centers.

At some point it's going to be necessary to rethink and refarm virtually the entire RF spectrum, due to demand for greater and greater bandwidth. This will create an astronomically large number of headaches. And some interesting conflicts, when radio observatories have to start making the case to keep their protected radio astronomy bands sacred, rather than allow them to be given over to a common carrier so people can download their particular fetish more quickly to their mobile devices.

Scientific research for the good of all mankind vs. the viral trending giggle of the moment? Which will win? Sad to say...it won't be science.

 

[MTS2000des]

IT does not really have a concept for durable equipment with a usable lifespan measured in decades, or even one decade.

Guess you're not familiar with Toughbooks, GeTACs, Dell Latitude XTG- all are enterprise grade devices designed for harsh use, 5+ year life cycles and serviceability. Most of the MCT laptops at my agency are more than 5 years old.

Apples to apples: Motorola LEX-L11n and Sonim XP8 are enterprise grade fully rugged PTToC Android devices that have long life cycles, designed for public safety use and have things like 3 watt loud speakers, accessory/vehicle adapter connectors, dual SIM capability (except the crippled AT&Turd version which disables the second SIM slot at the firmware level), large PTT and emergency "oh crap" keys. The "like, kind and quality" of traditional high tier PS radios are in these devices.

More are on the way. Looking at FirstNet's approved device list, it's huge. The dwindling number of new part 90 licenses clearly show users are migrating to subscription based services as months and years go on. 10 years from now, I think we will be looking at a vastly different landscape.

 

[GTR8000]

The dwindling number of new part 90 licenses clearly show users are migrating to subscription based services as months and years go on. 10 years from now, I think we will be looking at a vastly different landscape.

In fairness, one of the biggest reasons for the decline in Part 90 licenses is that a great many agencies are migrating to county and state owned trunked systems, and no longer need to license their own spectrum.

Every week I work one or two submissions for NY/NJ where ABC agency has moved to a TRS, abandoning their VHF/UHF spectrum in the process. The vast majority of the county owned trunked systems around here do not charge subscriber fees. NJ does for the NJICS statewide system, but they are largely the exception, not the rule.

 

[MTS2000des]

Was really referencing commercial applications for business use, not necessarily public safety. Local systems that were new a few years ago SMR wise are being shuttered in favor of PTToC. It just can't compete cost wise. $500-1000 radios plus fees vs. free apps or sub $100 PTToC dedicated devices, even less for service fees. Service areas only limited by cellular coverage. Local shops don't need bench techs or field techs. Local shops are leaning up. They are concentrating on BDA/DAS, cameras, and other ways to generate revenue. Big buck radios for business are going the way of VHS, compact cassette and CRT televisions. Change my mind.

 

[mmckenna]

Was really referencing commercial applications for business use, not necessarily public safety. Local systems that were new a few years ago SMR wise are being shuttered in favor of PTToC. It just can't compete cost wise. $500-1000 radios plus fees vs. free apps or sub $100 PTToC dedicated devices, even less for service fees. Service areas only limited by cellular coverage. Local shops don't need bench techs or field techs. Local shops are leaning up. They are concentrating on BDA/DAS, cameras, and other ways to generate revenue. Big buck radios for business are going the way of VHS, compact cassette and CRT televisions. Change my mind.

I think you are 100% spot on. While cellular networks are far from perfect, they do provide pretty reliable communications for Joe the Plumber and other non-public safety users. There isn't much justification for having an LMR system when cellular is cheaper, works better and provides more coverage than they could ever hope to have. Simplex radios, different argument.

LMR still has its place in mission critical communications, but Joe the Plumber isn't mission critical, no matter how badly you plugged your toilet after Thanksgiving dinner. (Eat some fiber, dude.)

But, LTE is growing. If it wasn't a reality, Motorola, Harris, Tait and other big name companies would not be adding it to their radios.

Even if the LTE network fails, we can always fall back on the ham operators with their Baofengs. 10-4?

 

[KK4JUG]

Even if the LTE network fails, we can always fall back on the ham operators with their Baofengs. 10-4?

Kinda makes me wish I hadn't gotten rid of mine. Or not.