My two pet peeves about amateur portable radios

[railguy5]

A little background first: I'm a 30 year+ amateur radio operator. I also managed a commercial two-way radio system for several years--over 100 mobile and portable radios, 6 base stations, and two mountaintop repeaters, using both analog and digital (NXDN) protocols. So, I've spent a lot of time around both commercial and amateur radio equipment.

Now, my two pet peeves--the first applies to both amateur portable and mobile radios, the second applies to portables:
1. Lack of 2.5 kHz step spacing on nearly all amateur VHF (2-meter) radio equipment. Why is this a big problem when most all amateur 2-meter communications use 5 kHz channel spacing? Well, because most amateurs ALSO use their amateur radio equipment's extended receive capabilities to monitor non-amateur radio channels that may (and more increasingly do) use the 2.5 kHz "splinter" channels created by the "re-farming" of the commercial VHF spectrum in 2013. There are only a few of the Japanese radio manufacturers that offer ANY 2-meter models that are 2.5 kHz step-capable. Most Chinese radios offer 2.5 kHz step capability, but many of those radios have other quality issues or other shortcomings that make them unattractive. Most all of the Chinese and many of the Japanese radios also have what I consider a major second flaw that I discuss below.

2. Inability to lock the keypad, PTT, and function buttons when the portable radio is in scan mode. Why is this a big deal? For both amateur use and monitoring of non-amateur radio channels, many amateurs want to monitor multiple channels using the radio's scan function. However, without the ability to lock the keypad, etc. while scanning, the user can inadvertently bump the keypad, PTT, etc. while carrying the radio on his/her belt, etc. and knock the radio out of scan mode without even knowing it. The commercial portable radio manufacturers have long ago realized that this can create an inconvenient and even dangerous situation for the user, so many commercial models allow the radio to be keypad-locked while in scan mode.

I talked with numerous factory reps of the radio manufacturers about these issues and they agree that it is a problem, but nothing ever gets done about it. So, why don't I just use commercial radios? Well, I do, except for one big issue. I have need to monitor both VHF and UHF commercial and amateur radio channels, and none of the radio manufacturers (Chinese or Japanese) produce either a commercial or amateur portable radio model that I know about that addresses BOTH of these issues.

I would appreciate others thoughts on this and if there IS a dual-band portable radio that addresses both of these issues out there, I'd like to know about it. Thanks.

 

[pcunite]

The portable coms industry is ripe for renewal. What you're wanting will come alongside high-end SDR making the cost come way down so they can spend on development and firmware instead of hardware. It will be a good thing. Really fast SDR chips can filter.

With hardware taken care of, product managers (doesn't seem to be much now) can respond to features you're asking about fairly easily.

 

[MUTNAV]

The FT-2D, when locked doesn't let me do anything but unlock it really, I don't know if this is different in its scan mode though.

Thanks
Joel

 

[jwt873]

FWIW, the Kenwood TH-D74 will scan with the keypad locked.. (Just tried it).

But no 2.5 kHz step...

 

[nd5y]

You don't need 2.5 kHz steps for receiving FM, especially when none of the Japanese rigs (US versions that I know of) actually have 12.5 kHz bandwidth narrow FM filters.

 

[prcguy]

There is no need for 2.5KHz steps in a 2m/70cm amateur radio, its not part of the amateur band plan or design criteria and it costs more $$ in design and possibly parts count to achieve it. It's nice if you can get it but otherwise why would you expect certain commercial specs in an amateur radio?

Only a few users would benefit from a 2.5KHz step feature and mfrs are always looking at design and manufacturing costs vs sales.

 

[AK9R]

Only a few users would benefit from a 2.5KHz step feature and mfrs are always looking at design and manufacturing costs vs sales.

Soon after the Kenwood TH-D72 came out, I asked Don Nickel from Kenwood about 2.5 or 7.5 kHz steps on VHF and explained why they might be useful. His response was along the lines of "buy a commercial radio".

 

[railguy5]

There is no need for 2.5KHz steps in a 2m/70cm amateur radio, its not part of the amateur band plan or design criteria and it costs more $$ in design and possibly parts count to achieve it. It's nice if you can get it but otherwise why would you expect certain commercial specs in an amateur radio?

Only a few users would benefit from a 2.5KHz step feature and mfrs are always looking at design and manufacturing costs vs sales.

I disagree on both counts. MANY amateur radio users monitor communications outside of the amateur bands. Manufacturers recognized this over 20 years ago when they started offering extended receive functionality on amateur radios. If one accepts your argument, amateur radio manufacturers wouldn't even offer a narrow band function on amateur radios because it isn't necessary in the amateur bands. As to your second argument about design and manufacturing costs, that is an equally specious argument. Many amateur radios are already built using commercial chassis construction, with band restriction and tuning steps managed by very simple changes in circuitry or with just firmware modifications. The Chinese manufacturers already figured this one out, too. The hard, unpleasant truth for amateur radio folks is that amateur radio is waning in popularity and the amateur market is now a shrinking percentage of the total two-way radio market. The Japanese manufacturers are not investing much in amateur radio these days, and the Chinese are increasingly (and unfortunately, in my opinion) gobbling up more of the amateur market share all the time. As to the suggestion to buy a commercial radio, I already own no less than 3 commercial mobile radios, 2 commercial portable radios, and 2 Chinese portable radios that can be either commercial or amateur based on how the software/firmware is configured. Yes, there are two high-quality dual-band commercial non-Chinese radios out there that will do 2.5 kHz tuning steps and have the robust keypad and scan functionality that I want--one from Motorola and one from BK Radio. But, they cost between $2,500 and $5, 000 each! I currently have two Chinese-made portable dual-band radios--the Wouxun KG-UV6X and the Anytone AT-d878uvii. My particular KG-UV6X performs extremely well, but its configuration makes it impossible to lock the keypad during scan, and it is extremely easy to inadvertently knock out of scan. The AT-d878uvii can be configured such that it can be keypad locked in scan, but it requires essentially disabling the two PF-function keys on the side of the radio with the programming software, which makes it difficult to use some of the DMR functions. The AT-d878Vii that I have is also not a particularly good performer in analog mode, and I much of my monitoring, etc. is done in analog.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I think the EF Johnson VP8000 checks off the 2.5 kHz step issue. Don't know about locking out PTT while scanning though (unless the primary is a RX only channel).

 

[MTS2000des]

There is no need for amateurs to narrowband to 2.5KHz deviation or 2.5KHz channel steps. Buy a commercial HT. Kenwood TK-2180/3180 are cheap, do narrowband like a boss, plenty of channels/zones, OST, and plenty of "cop sounds" like MDC1200 (with F/W 1.22), FleetSync, 2-tone. Scan is flexible, can scan all zones or just one, user programmable scan list, a nuisance delete that actually works. Full VHF band performance and unlike modified ham radios, the 2180/3180 are fully part 90 certified for LMR use to transmit.

 

[railguy5]

^I already own several VHF commercial radios, both Icom and Kenwood models, BUT THEY ARE SINGLE BAND. What I'm looking for a a DUAL-BAND commercial model that has the features that I mentioned in my first post.

 

[Moto_user]

The Chinese are gobbling up the market because of people who choose to buy cheap, disposable radios versus quality. The Chinese are just stealing everyone's IP and using that technology to make poor quality copy cat radios that don't have the good engineering and manufacturing practices behind them. Nothing beats the scanning on a commercial radio, especially Motorolas, which is why I use them for scanning and Ham. I also own several newer Yaesu radios for their functionality on the Ham bands and have been very happy with the quality.

I'm not knocking those who buy the Chinese radios because they don't have the disposable cash to buy a Yaesu or Icon, after all, it allows them to get on the air without breaking the bank. However, the Chinese radios do not compare to the Japanese engineered and manufactured ones.

As someone else suggested, I think you're best bet is to look at the Kenwood/EF Johnson VP8000 or a Motorola APX, but you're going to be spending a lot of cash. None of the Motorola radios I use allow you to lock the PTT during scan and I don't know of any that exist in any of the commercial market radios.

 

[KB1VLA]

There is no need for amateurs to narrowband to 2.5KHz deviation or 2.5KHz channel steps. Buy a commercial HT. Kenwood TK-2180/3180 are cheap, do narrowband like a boss, plenty of channels/zones, OST, and plenty of "cop sounds" like MDC1200 (with F/W 1.22), FleetSync, 2-tone. Scan is flexible, can scan all zones or just one, user programmable scan list, a nuisance delete that actually works. Full VHF band performance and unlike modified ham radios, the 2180/3180 are fully part 90 certified for LMR use to transmit.

The OP and I are in lock-step on this. I'd love to have a 2m/440 HT that had narrowband and 2.5KHz steps. What's the point of extended receive if it cant do either of those? I'm a ham and an avid railroad buff. I have a Kenwood commercial HT and a Baofeng and guess what? When I'm out chasing trains I use the Baofeng more, because it has a magic feature called a "VFO". I can enter a frequency on the keypad and ka-bang! I'm tuned to it. That's much more practical than lugging a laptop around to add frequencies to my Kenwood. Is the Kenwood a better radio? By miles. But, it is less flexible.

 

[MTS2000des]

The OP and I are in lock-step on this. I'd love to have a 2m/440 HT that had narrowband and 2.5KHz steps. What's the point of extended receive if it cant do either of those? I'm a ham and an avid railroad buff. I have a Kenwood commercial HT and a Baofeng and guess what? When I'm out chasing trains I use the Baofeng more, because it has a magic feature called a "VFO". I can enter a frequency on the keypad and ka-bang! I'm tuned to it. That's much more practical than lugging a laptop around to add frequencies to my Kenwood. Is the Kenwood a better radio? By miles. But, it is less flexible.

What's wrong with a modern scanner? If all you're doing is listening, a modern analog scanner like a BC-125AT would do a boss job, scan the band faster than any hamster toy, do all the channel steps, and you'd never worry about keying up where you aren't supposed to. They're around $120 new. Easy to program from the keypad or from a PC. Small. Light. They run forever off a pair of regular AA batteries. Just a thought.

Yeah, I'm calling it- the folks who want these channel steps in ham gear aren't "just listening". My ham radios are ham radios. If I want to scan, that's what the BCD-436HP, BCD536 and SDS200 are for. All of them blow away ham radios for that purpose, especially Baoturds with their easy to overload front ends, pathetically slow scan, and garbage pail performance overall.

 

[es93546]

I agree with the OP. When I'm on foot in the backcountry I want to have the capability of listening and transmitting on amateur frequencies. I also want to scan the agency that manages the land I'm walking on. So I want to be able to scan the National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management. They all use 12.5 K narrowband channels, but they can't be programmed into most amateur radios. I don't want to carry two radios (ham and scanner) because weight is very important, not to mention trying to find a place to hang the radio while hiking with a backpack. I would really like a ham radio with 800 MHz receive only capability as that is what the California State Parks use. On this last point, I don't hike in state parks as often as I do the federal agencies I mentioned so I might label that one as a pipe dream. The other wish is important to me however.

There are a lot of amateurs that backpack and have similar wishes to mine. Often what we pickup can be very useful info on trail conditions, fires, rescues, flooding and similar that can affect routes chosen and other safety measures.

 

[nd5y]

So I want to be able to scan the National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management. They all use 12.5 K narrowband channels, but they can't be programmed into most amateur radios.

This makes no sense. The federal allocations on 162-174 and 406-420 are all 12.5 kHz spaced channels.
I haven't seen a ham VHF/UHF FM radio made in the last 30 years that doesn't have 12.5 kHz steps. What radio do you have that can't do this?

 

[ecps92]

This makes no sense. The federal allocations on 162-174 and 406-420 are all 12.5 kHz spaced channels.
I haven't seen a ham VHF/UHF FM radio made in the last 30 years that doesn't have 12.5 kHz steps. What radio do you have that can't do this?

And, even for RX purposes only being +/- 5 kHz off will still hear the transmissions - as long as it is Analog (since there is no Amateur model that supports P25)

 

[railguy5]

I own scanners, too. The Uniden BC-125AT is about the only portable scanner that I've owned or used that has halfway decent sensitivity and selectivity. What I don't like about it is its battery setup. Yes, it will use AA alkaline or rechargeable batteries, but constantly changing out batteries will wear out the battery receptacles long before the radio wears out. Also, I admonish anyone to NEVER charge the rechargeable batteries in the BC-125AT radio with the USB cord. The charging circuit is prone to malfunction and can overheat and destroy the radio, if not potentially starting a fire. I caught mine just in time--it had started to melt the case and would have destroyed the radio had it been on the charger for just a little while longer. As to the Uniden "high-end" digital scanners like the SDS-100 (which I own), my experience has been that their performance in the analog VHF and UHF bands just plain sucks.

As to the post above, the federal allocations of the 162-174 mHz is 12.5 kHz channel spacing, WITH 2.5 KhZ frequency step spacing in the commercial, industrial, and public service uses. The whole purpose of narrow-band "re-farming" was to double the amount of available channels in a given frequency spectrum--VHF in this case. Now, amateur radio may still operate in wide band, and most do--this is because there was so much "legacy" amateur equipment out there that was not narrow-band capable. Also, a lot older wide-band-only commercial radio equipment obsoleted for use in those bands was surplus sold into the used amateur radio market. The whole point of my original post, however, was that amateur radios often serve a dual purpose for the user--communicating on amateur channels and monitoring the commercial and public service channels. Those non-amateur "splinter" 2.5 kHz-spaced channels are coming into more use. The typical amateur radio (the "hybrid" Chinese radios being the major exception) can not tune those splinter channels because of the 5 kHz tuning step used in those amateur radios.

My final editorial comment. If people wonder why amateur radio is decreasing in popularity, it is, in part, because a lot of amateur radio operators just get hide-bound stubborn about accepting any new technology other than what has been around for decades. I can understand some of that--I'm not keen on jumping on every new hardware or software gizmo "just because"--but I don't see why a 2.5 kHz tuning step feature in an amateur radio should be such a "not on my amateur radio" thing.

 

[ladn]

Often what we pickup can be very useful info on trail conditions, fires, rescues, flooding and similar that can affect routes chosen and other safety measures.

I don't hike as much as I 4-Wheel, but I do like to maintain a degree of situational awareness by monitoring the local land management agencies and (usually) a few other frequencies, including VHF marine Ch. 16 and 121.5.

Over the years, the information I've heard has helped me avoid area closures, fires, law enforcement activity and localized weather conditions.

 

[nd5y]

My final editorial comment. If people wonder why amateur radio is decreasing in popularity, it is, in part, because a lot of amateur radio operators just get hide-bound stubborn about accepting any new technology other than what has been around for decades. I can understand some of that--I'm not keen on jumping on every new hardware or software gizmo "just because"--but I don't see why a 2.5 kHz tuning step feature in an amateur radio should be such a "not on my amateur radio" thing.

Japanese amateur FM equipment not having 2.5 kHz tuning steps is not because of old fart American hams that refuse to change it's because the Japanese engineers won't implement it. It's probably the same reason why Japanese amateur FM equipment doesn't have PL reverse burst or real priority channels.