New communication System

[1stresponders]

Hello, we have started a new medical first responders team in downtown Toronto Canada We are looking to set outselves up with some communications equipment. We operate sometimes over a rather large area so i'm thinking traditional FRS/GMRS radios aren't really going to do the job. We also want to incorporate motorola's call buttons (Model MOC4600i) so if we are needed somewhere people can just press the button and we will be automatically dispatched to that location via RF. But that device only operates on the UHF band. I have a few questions and I think I've come to the right place. Please excuse the vague technical refrences.

1. If I buy a radio off of ebay (well a few) and they are all UHF and have the same frequency ranges, can I reprogram them easily with a PC and some software/hardware that people are advertsing on ebay.

2. (relating two 1) How do I go about ensuring that no one else is using that frequency other that what's listed in the database on this website, or is that it?

3. People keep talking about FCC licenses but from what I can gather the FCC is an american company that deals with american frequencies. Is there something similar in canada?

4. If I can't program the radios myself (am farily computer savey and not bad a custom circuts) can I just take them to a radio shop and tell them what frequency I want?

Thanks in advance for your help! I need it...

 

[jellotor]

Hello, we have started a new medical first responders team in downtown Toronto Canada We are looking to set outselves up with some communications equipment. We operate sometimes over a rather large area so i'm thinking traditional FRS/GMRS radios aren't really going to do the job. We also want to incorporate motorola's call buttons (Model MOC4600i) so if we are needed somewhere people can just press the button and we will be automatically dispatched to that location via RF. But that device only operates on the UHF band. I have a few questions and I think I've come to the right place. Please excuse the vague technical refrences.

1. If I buy a radio off of ebay (well a few) and they are all UHF and have the same frequency ranges, can I reprogram them easily with a PC and some software/hardware that people are advertsing on ebay.

2. (relating two 1) How do I go about ensuring that no one else is using that frequency other that what's listed in the database on this website, or is that it?

3. People keep talking about FCC licenses but from what I can gather the FCC is an american company that deals with american frequencies. Is there something similar in canada?

4. If I can't program the radios myself (am farily computer savey and not bad a custom circuts) can I just take them to a radio shop and tell them what frequency I want?

Thanks in advance for your help! I need it...

Ok, first off...

1. Depends on the radio. Some radios are easier to reprogram than others. Motorola radios require you to spend the money and license the software from Motorola and purchase a radio interface box.

2. You license the frequency from Industry Canada.

3. Company? Federal Communications Commission...they are the government agency that co-ordinates frequencies and all other manner of RF-related stuff. Industry Canada is the Canadian equivalent.

4. You could do that...but most shops will ask you if you're licensed on the frequencies you want programmed first...especially if your radios are going to be able to transmit.

Secondly...

Let me apologise in advance for coming across as a hard-ass here...but you don't seem to have done enough homework regarding the *legalities* of running a radio system...and I assume you want a radio system that covers the whole city. You don't seem to be up-to-speed enough to maintain your own radio system, especially over a geographic area the size of Toronto. Do yourself a favour...buy all your 'first responders' Bell 10-4-capable cellphones or rent radios off a commercial system. If you start purchasing radios off eBay and programming them (illegally?) with non-licensed frequency (especially in the largest city in the country) you're going to run afoul of Industry Canada VERY quickly.

And I wasn't aware that there were any other medical first responders in Toronto besides EMS...but I'll just keep my comments to myself there I think.

Andy? Steve? Mike? Anyone have anything else to add?

 

[DaveH]

I concur with Jello's rundown on things. Unless you have very deep pockets
and lots of time to spend on building your own infrastructure, rent regular
2-way radios, or the radio/phone types offered by Telus (MiKE system) or
Bell (10-4 system). Be prepared to pay monthly charges per radio, plus
airtime.

Radio sites cost big money to set up and maintain...typically into 6 digits;
and you would need more than one by the sound of your operation.

Radio frequencies are a scare resource and very heavily used in major
areas like GTA. I strongly recommend not buying radios off eBay (or anywhere
else) and trying to have them programmed up, without going through the
proper channels i.e. licensing; regardless of what anyone offers to do for
you free or cheap. And in the best sort of way I agree with Jello, you need
to do more research before jumping into something.

Dave

 

[jellotor]

Hey, sorry Dave...forgot all about you...I'm having a hard time keeping all the dudes with sage wisdom straight...

 

[1stresponders]

As I said, new to this. I appreciate the feedback. By toronto I don't mean all of greater toronto, we have tried using GMRS radio's and the range is just not getting it for us. However a trunking system (if I am correct where it will relay of a tower, or many) is not needed.

So if I where to purchase radios and buy a license, and take that to an authorized reseller that would be the best bet is what your saying?

If that still isn't working range/quality wise we where looking at the mike service from telus; and from what I gather that would probably be the best route as a second choice.

Let me know your thoughts.

Once again thank you for your help.

 

[HammerYYZ]

Hey what is the name of your First Responder Group called....what would you be doing? How would you respond ect...
Hammer

 

[Chomper1313]

3. Company? Federal Communications Commission...they are the government agency that co-ordinates frequencies and all other manner of RF-related stuff. Industry Canada is the Canadian equivalent.

Isn't the CRTC the canadian equivalent of the FCC?

 

[Chrome69]

I think the best bet since your starting out is to go with the Bell 10-4 service but if you really require a system why not talk to Lakeshore Electronics about maybe getting on their
LTR system either way your still going to be having monthly fees weather its on Bell cell or a radio system.. Setting up your own system and towers is major coin, Nothing wrong with renting equipment alot of company's do... I would think hooking up on the LTR isn't that expensive as the Tow trucks are on it..

 

[Jay911]

Isn't the CRTC the canadian equivalent of the FCC?

Not in terms of radio communications (i.e. land mobile). Industry Canada handles licensing and maintenance of the radio spectrum. The CRTC deals primarily with broadcasting services (television and "commercial" radio) and telephony.

 

[mciupa]

I wasn't aware that there were any other medical first responders in Toronto besides EMS

The thought of unauthorized access to emergency scenes makes me shudder, and also think about the potential of theft from a helpless victim. :evil:

Get lots of insurance before you go ahead with this venture.

 

[exkalibur]

Well, Toronto already has a few "first responder" groups around, other than Toronto EMS, so it certainly wouldn't be a first around here. Hatzoloh Toronto comes to mind. There's no such thing as "unauthorized access" to emergency scenes. If you're first on scene of a accident or whatever, you're legally allowed to lend your assistance until a higher medical authority (Toronto EMS) arrives on scene.

That said - do we really need another SJA around here? The one we have is already broken beyond repair.

 

[exkalibur]

Also, just to add.

There are a few rental systems you can take a look at.

Mobile Business Communications runs a UHF LTR, 900MHz LTR and a 900MHz EDACS system.

Lakeshore Electronics/Fleetcom run a 900MHz LTR sytem and a 900MHz Harmony system.

Action Wireless Solutions run (barely) a 900MHz EDACS system.

They all have pretty decent coverage in the Toronto area.

I don't know specifics regarding rental rates, but I know they aren't the cheapest thing in the world. I was quoted $150 per unit for a 3 day rental on the Lakeshore Harmony system. That's insane.

 

[jellotor]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the only place for enthusiastic amateurs in emergency services is behind a desk or under the stern, watchful eye of the professionals.

1stresponders, you seem to have missed the point of my post. Your first choice isn't to purchase radios and license a frequency...that's your LAST OPTION because it is the one that involves the most amount of work, beauracracy and money.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess this is probably a member-funded operation...which means its within your purvey to go fishing for old radios on eBay but monthly costs (ie. renting on a commercial system or cellular) are what you want to avoid.

It ain't gonna happen.

The loops you'll have to jump through in order to find a licensable frequency in downtown TO alone is enough to make a guy's head spin.

I can fully understand your desire to do things on the cheap...radios from eBay, suggestion of just 'finding' an unused frequency by trolling the database here, asking for radio system advice on a scanner forum...it frightens me a bit considering what 'business' you're in, but I can understand. What you need to do is more research (a LOT more research) before spending a dime on any fancy radios. If you're a non-profit, talk to some LMR professionals to get an idea what's involved in what you're trying to accomplish.

Here's an analogy that may hit home for you: most people wouldn't attempt dentistry on their own...but for those enthusiastic amateurs who want to bring their skills to bear, it helps to read up and know which tooth is which.

 

[slicerwizard]

we have tried using GMRS radio's and the range is just not getting it for us. However a trunking system (if I am correct where it will relay of a tower, or many) is not needed.

So simplex isn't good enough, but a repeater isn't necessary? I'm having trouble understanding that one.

Plan on spending about $30 a month per radio for repeater access, whether it be on a commercial analog system or a digital carrier.

Lakeshore Electronics/Fleetcom run a 900MHz LTR sytem and a 900MHz Harmony system.

Unless things changed while I wasn't looking, wouldn't it be Privacy Plus, not LTR?

Andy? Steve? Mike? Anyone have anything else to add?

OMG. (I think that about covers it)

 

[motomeso]

Andy? Steve? Mike? Anyone have anything else to add?

I can't believe you left me out your expert list.

My professional opinion is....................Keep your day job and let the experts do theirs.

Or rent equipment and airtime off one of the companies listed in this thread. I would steer away from Bell 10-4 due to the set-up and knock down time for group conversations and Mike for their high rates for group calls. If you plan on just person to person calling then they might be ok but I wouldn't want to rely on a public infrastructure during a real emergency since they tend to get overloaded (Aug14 anybody) and become useless.

I wonder what the legalities would be for non-profit first responders using Amateur Radio? Might be the quickest way to the front page of Hamsexy.

 

[jellotor]

I can't believe you left me out your expert list.

Terry? Is that you? I think I vaguely remember you...mua ha haaa...

I wonder what the legalities would be for non-profit first responders using Amateur Radio? Might be the quickest way to the front page of Hamsexy.

Exactly what I was thinking from the get-go.

Originally I was gonna suggest the tried-and-true 'soupcans connected with a string' but I hear Campbells is phasing out analog cans and the voice quality on the new digital cans isn't all its cracked up to be. Plus, there's always the chance they'll encrypt...

All in all, I don't understand why everyone doesn't just use carrier pigeons...I mean, hell, carrier pigeons were good enough back in grandpappy's day...all these new soupcans-and-strings systems are just a way for the can companies to get rich...

 

[1stresponders]

Thanks for your help

A lot of great feed back, I much apprecaite, in terms of the legallities, the host corporation is looking after that and everything is set out, Canadian law protects us when arriving on scene.

A bunch of amerature first aiders is not really what we are, we are paid to responde to on scene incidents prior to EMS's arrival, hence the name first responders.

In terms of the radios we are a bunch of paramedics and first responders, not telecommuncations experts, so i'm glad I found you guys, we didn't know that it was so extensive to set up a small radio system, security already has one in place (but for legal reasons can't be shared) so we didn't think it would be such a venture. I'm going to get ahold of some authorized dealers and chat with them.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[jellotor]

Best idea I've heard all day long! Good luck...and hopefully our semi-finely-honed 'whacker radar' didn't turn you off too much...

And make sure to let us know what you'll end up using once you get it all sussed out...

 

[exkalibur]

For legal reasons, the security system is always talking...

Andy yea, I mean Privacy Plus - it was late...give me a break! I had a pretty stressful night

 

[slicerwizard]

Hey, chill out!

I haven't monitored any of that lately and just wanted to verify that they didn't do anything stupid (OK, anything else...)