New Equipment new HAM Operator

[GalaxyMule]

Hello everyone, I am relatively new to HAM and appreciate your time reading this. I have had a technician license for awhile and my parents started asking me some interesting questions and want to get into HAM more with me. They live about 130 miles away so I would like to transmit about 150 miles. I am perfectly willing to upgrade my license and they are willing to get whatever is needed as well.

Obviously nobody wants to spend tons of money but I am trying to get more information and feedback from others. I current just use a Baofeng UV-5R7W which I wholly understand isn't a super great radio. I don't need something great I just need something functional and reliable. That said I am trying to buy the right equipment to talk to them with audio, not morse code or anything and without a repeater.

Also, I am completely willing to modify a brand new radio to accomplish what I need if it makes sense.
I will be installing my radio in a vehicle, and I can manage any power requirements that might require such as a second battery etc.
I am currently looking the President LINCOLN-II-Plus however it seems like this radio isn't the best based on reviews/has really mixed reviews.
I have also been looking at the ICOM IC-7100, IC-705, IC-718, and a YAESU ft-99A, I understand these are pretty drastic price points but I really just want to find something that will do what I want without spending dozens or more hours just trying to find what products are still on the market. I have found plenty that are discontinued.

Please give me some feedback. And honestly if any handheld radio will make it 150 miles I would be very interested in that too, even if I have to connect it to an antenna in my attic.

 

[tweiss3]

This is a very loaded question, and one that is quite difficult to answer. The easy answer is that it's not possible. The long answer involves some explanations, see below.

When looking at "reliable every day communications" you must ignore any band openings and propagation, as it will not be available every day, and can change from hour to hour.

Lets start with VHF. The 2m band is usually pretty good for distance, however, you are still stuck with the physics of the curvature of the earth. Even with a 150 base tower, and a 300' receive tower (repeater tower) there is a station 130 miles away that cannot reliably make it in each morning with 100W of power on both sides. Based on line of sight (only looking a the earths curvature) general guidance, not any mountainous terrain that might be in the way, 300' gets you approximately 25 miles to the ground, two 300' towers would get approximately 50 miles of range, only 1/3 of what you are looking to get. VHF low band (6 meters) is the same, without propagation.

Looking at HF, 150 miles is looking to NVIS propagation, not the typical propagation. You would need high takeoff angles from your antenna of choice. This method is still not 100% reliable.

As you can see above, just the tip of the iceberg, its not going to be a simple answer. Perhaps induce some smaller infrastructure to make it happen. Look at Allstar which is ham radio over the internet. You could build SHARI allstar nodes and use your hand held to talk over the UHF node, and like your node to theirs. Node-Ventures also has a Clearnode that works well, but has a high pricepoint and very low availability. There are other options as well. You could also use echolink over your phone or computer to talk direct to them on their computer/phone via the application.

If your primary goal is to have private communications between you and your parents, it's going to be difficult to achieve (and it won't be private, others could listen).

 

[jwt873]

One point.. On HF. 150 Miles is no problem for 80 and 40 meters. In less than an hour after I post this, I'll be on 80 meters chatting with a group of friends. Some as far as 300 miles away. Some mornings a fellow 1200 miles away away joins in.

HF is not 100% though. Conditions depend on solar activity. During the occasional solar flare, or solar coronal mass ejection, signals can be very weak, ore wiped out completely.

And... Extreme measures can get you over the horizon on VHF/UHF. Tomorrow night, I'll be chatting on 70 cm UHF with a friend 300 miles away in Minnesota. This is done using high power single sideband fed to a high gain antenna. (I use 1000 Watts to a 21 element horizontally polarized Yagi). This is made possible by the regular water vapor or humidity that's always present in the atmosphere. It does a good job of bending signals.

 

[AK9R]

150 Miles is no problem for 80 and 40 meters.

Tell us about your antenna for 80 or 40 meters. I find that the size of the antenna for the low bands is a problem for many new hams.

 

[tweiss3]

Tell us about your antenna for 80 or 40 meters. I find that the size of the antenna for the low bands is a problem for many new hams.

It also should be noted choice of band changes with time of day.

 

[ladn]

I have had a technician license for awhile and my parents started asking me some interesting questions and want to get into HAM more with me.

Welcome to RR and amateur radio!

You didn't mention what kind of conversations/communications you want to have with your parents, nor yours and their locations.

If you want to have long (aka "rag chew" conversations), then maybe HF as discussed above would be the best option. IF you want more casual, short conversations, look into any linked VHF or UHF repeater systems that cover both your and their areas. Here in SoCal, we have several wide area (membership required) repeater systems such as DARN, PAPA or GRONK. The CARLA system covers vast areas of Northern California and Western Nevada. There may also be stand alone, or small systems, that will link via IRLP or ALLSTAR networks.

The advantage of these is they may be accessible with your existing equipment. The downside is that many of the wide area repeater systems are private and require a paid membership--although it's common for such systems to allow prospective members to test drive for free.

 

[jwt873]

Tell us about your antenna for 80 or 40 meters. (
I find that the size of the antenna for the low bands is a problem for many new hams.

I use a full sized inverted Vee for 80. (About 124 feet long). The apex is suspended 30 feet off the ground. It forms an almost a perfect 45 degree angle. The ends are about 7 feet off the ground. The vee is a pretty good NVIS antenna.

I'm in the country on an acreage, so space isn't a concern. But.. I also had an 80 meter vee up years ago when I lived in the city on a 60 x 120 lot.

 

[jwt873]

It also should be noted choice of band changes with time of day.

Yes.. On 80, the ionosphere absorbs signals when the sun is shining on it rather than refracting the signals back to earth the way it does with higher frequencies.

80 Meters is generally used as a night time band.. But that's for long haul. For daytime operation, 80 provides a pretty good ground wave. Even at high noon you can talk 150 miles.

I take part in a 'weather net' every morning on 80. Been doing it for at least 10 years. 20 to 30 hams check in at 8:30 local time and it takes about 1/2 an hour for everyone to give their local weather. After that some of us usually break off and we have a round table chat.

At 8:30 local time, the sun is just below the horizon in December and it's been up for over 3 hours in June. Our net works weather it's dark or light out. Actually the daylight meetings are better because the band is short and we don't have to worry about distant stations causing QRM on the frequency we usually use.

 

[W8WCA]

D-Star could do if a local D-Star Repeater
Or get a HotSpot and D-Star

Depends on how long talks are (rag chew or just short)

 

[K4EET]

With respect to communications between you and your parents via ham radio, don't overlook the FCC rules and regulations on types of communications that are NOT permitted. While permitted communications are quite broad, it is still not a cellular telephone call or an Apple FaceTime call. As long as you and your parents are okay with that, then there shouldn't be any issues. You didn't say anything to this effect, but perhaps one or both of you all do not have telephone service, Internet service, etc. that could employ other point-to-point communications means between your homes (which I believe is your objective) such as Skype, Zoom, etc. I don't want to be the party pooper because I am all for bringing more hams into our ranks but I just want to make sure that the medium you settle on will fully meet your needs and expectations. As for the technical aspects of the communications path and alternatives, others have a good start on that above. I might ask at this point, do you have any questions for us and are there any additional details that you might be able to share that would enable us to "fine tune" our answers thus far a little closer to what you might be leaning towards? 73, Dave K4EET

 

[GalaxyMule]

One point.. On HF. 150 Miles is no problem for 80 and 40 meters. In less than an hour after I post this, I'll be on 80 meters chatting with a group of friends. Some as far as 300 miles away. Some mornings a fellow 1200 miles away away joins in.

HF is not 100% though. Conditions depend on solar activity. During the occasional solar flare, or solar coronal mass ejection, signals can be very weak, ore wiped out completely.

And... Extreme measures can get you over the horizon on VHF/UHF. Tomorrow night, I'll be chatting on 70 cm UHF with a friend 300 miles away in Minnesota. This is done using high power single sideband fed to a high gain antenna. (I use 1000 Watts to a 21 element horizontally polarized Yagi). This is made possible by the regular water vapor or humidity that's always present in the atmosphere. It does a good job of bending signals.

I’m not looking for 100%, I’d be happy if I could try every third day and it works. Really just interested in being able to communicate at all if for instance Russia starts nuking places and it’s not safe to travel and don’t have power for 2+ weeks. You know going real dark. Could I radio my parents everyday at 8pm and maybe the 3rd day the stars align?

 

[GalaxyMule]

Welcome to RR and amateur radio!

You didn't mention what kind of conversations/communications you want to have with your parents, nor yours and their locations.

If you want to have long (aka "rag chew" conversations), then maybe HF as discussed above would be the best option. IF you want more casual, short conversations, look into any linked VHF or UHF repeater systems that cover both your and their areas.

Just trying to talk occasionally doesn’t need to be super long or consistent. If I call everyday at 8 if it eventually goes through in a week I’ll be happy. I want to avoid repeaters in some crazy event they are all down. They live in Fort Wayne, IN and I am in Dayton, OH.

 

[GalaxyMule]

With respect to communications between you and your parents via ham radio, don't overlook the FCC rules and regulations on types of communications that are NOT permitted. While permitted communications are quite broad, it is still not a cellular telephone call or an Apple FaceTime call. As long as you and your parents are okay with that, then there shouldn't be any issues. You didn't say anything to this effect, but perhaps one or both of you all do not have telephone service, Internet service, etc. that could employ other point-to-point communications means between your homes (which I believe is your objective) such as Skype, Zoom, etc. I don't want to be the party pooper because I am all for bringing more hams into our ranks but I just want to make sure that the medium you settle on will fully meet your needs and expectations. As for the technical aspects of the communications path and alternatives, others have a good start on that above. I might ask at this point, do you have any questions for us and are there any additional details that you might be able to share that would enable us to "fine tune" our answers thus far a little closer to what you might be leaning towards? 73, Dave K4EET

Dave,
I think I’ve now answered most of these. Reasoning is I want a form of communication if all other forms go down. Just a hey is everyone alive? Alright stay where your at I’m coming to you. I’m very much alright sharing more details. What is needed?

 

[MUTNAV]

Hello everyone, I am relatively new to HAM and appreciate your time reading this. I have had a technician license for awhile and my parents started asking me some interesting questions and want to get into HAM more with me. They live about 130 miles away so I would like to transmit about 150 miles. I am perfectly willing to upgrade my license and they are willing to get whatever is needed as well.

Obviously nobody wants to spend tons of money but I am trying to get more information and feedback from others. I current just use a Baofeng UV-5R7W which I wholly understand isn't a super great radio. I don't need something great I just need something functional and reliable. That said I am trying to buy the right equipment to talk to them with audio, not morse code or anything and without a repeater.

Also, I am completely willing to modify a brand new radio to accomplish what I need if it makes sense.
I will be installing my radio in a vehicle, and I can manage any power requirements that might require such as a second battery etc.
I am currently looking the President LINCOLN-II-Plus however it seems like this radio isn't the best based on reviews/has really mixed reviews.
I have also been looking at the ICOM IC-7100, IC-705, IC-718, and a YAESU ft-99A, I understand these are pretty drastic price points but I really just want to find something that will do what I want without spending dozens or more hours just trying to find what products are still on the market. I have found plenty that are discontinued.

Please give me some feedback. And honestly if any handheld radio will make it 150 miles I would be very interested in that too, even if I have to connect it to an antenna in my attic.

I think it's awesome that your parents are willing to do this ! ! Both of you are lucky to have each other.

Long ago when E-mail was first coming out, my father said that he didn't like it, but if thats what it took to communicate with his kids, he'll use it.

The nice thing about HF is that if the conversation turns to why you aren't married yet or where their grand kids are, propagation can get worse quickly.

Tropo-scatter would also work, but it requires higher power levels and bigger antennas than you are probably willing to work with.

Good luck

Thanks
Joel

 

[GalaxyMule]

I think it's awesome that your parents are willing to do this ! ! Both of you are lucky to have each other.

Long ago when E-mail was first coming out, my father said that he didn't like it, but if thats what it took to communicate with his kids, he'll use it.

The nice thing about HF is that if the conversation turns to why you aren't married yet or where their grand kids are, propagation can get worse quickly.

Tropo-scatter would also work, but it requires higher power levels and bigger antennas than you are probably willing to work with.

Good luck

Thanks
Joel

Do tell, I don’t know if it does or not? Does it work with 1/4 wavelength antennas?

 

[MUTNAV]

Generally not with a 1/4 wavelength antenna. In order for it to work mobile, you would need a very large antenna on your roof

On

Troposcatter inside and out:

www.qsl.net

They say that with ( each of you having )a 10 Watt SSB radio and a 10 Db antenna, you should be able to work to 300 Km (186 miles)...
Not really great for mobile unless you want your truck to look like a small space station. (Think "Rover", people that travel to out of the way places to get credit for being in areas that aren't active with radio operators), although I doubt you would need that much antenna.


It might be easier to go with the mentioned NVIS idea. The antennas for that can look like the third picture.

I hope it helps.

I'm sure others can chime in with a better description...

Thanks
Joel

 

[GalaxyMule]

Generally not with a 1/4 wavelength antenna. In order for it to work mobile, you would need a very large antenna on your roof

On

Troposcatter inside and out:

www.qsl.net

They say that with ( each of you having )a 10 Watt SSB radio and a 10 Db antenna, you should be able to work to 300 Km (186 miles)...
Not really great for mobile unless you want your truck to look like a small space station. (Think "Rover", people that travel to out of the way places to get credit for being in areas that aren't active with radio operators), although I doubt you would need that much antenna.


It might be easier to go with the mentioned NVIS idea. The antennas for that can look like the third picture.

I hope it helps.

I'm sure others can chime in with a better description...

Thanks
Joel

This has been an awesome read, also sounds like what I want for sure. And the distances are definitely everything I need. 144 MHz with a 3 M antenna? Does this work with a J-pole antenna? And moon bouncing is not easy correct? 10 GHz and 50W doesn’t sound like a big ask.

 

[MUTNAV]

No... 3 M is an antenna 3 meters long, you and your parents would each need one, and the antennas would have to be kept pointed at each other. Home to home is one thing, mobile would be very difficult, next to impossible... This is why I included the pictures of the setups of huge antennas on vehicles (and they can get bigger).

EME I wouldn't even consider for voice, the signal levels are usually too low for voice, AND you have to keep the antennas pointed at the moon as it moves across the sky.

Tropo-scatter is more of an idea of what COULD be accomplished, this is a way that is the upper range of what anyone can do with V/UHF without repeaters (or satellites), on voice.

I don't do either...

I'm kind of trying to subtly steer towards the NVIS idea as the most practical.

I hope this helps and hasn't been misleading.

Thanks
Joel

 

[GalaxyMule]

No... 3 M is an antenna 3 meters long, you and your parents would each need one, and the antennas would have to be kept pointed at each other. Home to home is one thing, mobile would be very difficult, next to impossible... This is why I included the pictures of the setups of huge antennas on vehicles (and they can get bigger).

EME I wouldn't even consider for voice, the signal levels are usually too low for voice, AND you have to keep the antennas pointed at the moon as it moves across the sky.

Tropo-scatter is more of an idea of what COULD be accomplished, this is a way that is the upper range of what anyone can do with V/UHF without repeaters (or satellites), on voice.

I don't do either...

I'm kind of trying to subtly steer towards the NVIS idea as the most practical.

I hope this helps and hasn't been misleading.

Thanks
Joel

I am aware 3M is the length of the antenna. Well i think I’ve re evaluated my plan and I am thinking the troposcatter as a stationary system maybe install a 3 meter antenna in my attic. I could give up on the mobile bit for now. I was looking at the NVIS explained here https://www.hamradioschool.com/post/near-vertical-incidence-skywave-nvis my parents would not be able to get away with that large of an antenna. I think both of us would be capped at 10m antennas.
The nvis sounds very similar to the troposcatter? They both bounce off layers of the atmosphere correct?

 

[MUTNAV]

Hi... Sorry for the delay...


my best analogy for Troposcatter, is that if you look at the really high power searchlights that are used to advertise various things (car dealership sales and such) , the beam sweeping across the sky is visible even though you aren't line of sight with the transmitter... Just think of radio waves instead of light.

Another analogy is when looking at the sky when approaching a city, you can usually see the sky being brighter because of all of the light that is being bounced around in the atmosphere, even though you aren't able to see the city itself yet.

NVIS depends on the upper atmosphere being ionized, and the frequencies that you can use change both between day and night (usually), and what the sun has been doing, sometimes it just isn't possible to use NVIS.

When you plan your system, give yourself a few Db extra gain to make up for unforeseen problems.

I hope it helps.

Thanks
Joel