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New FRS Radios?

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nd5y

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Is it possible to listen to the default configured radios on a scanner? My searches aren't finding anything.
Scanners are not capable of frequency hopping and they aren't capable of receiving the digital format that the Motorola radios use.

Even if the frequency hopping used plain analog FM and and you programmed a scanner with the hopset frequencies in the correct order with no delay it still wouldn't work because there is no way the scanner could sync to it.
 

n1das

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Scanners are not capable of frequency hopping and they aren't capable of receiving the digital format that the Motorola radios use.

Even if the frequency hopping used plain analog FM and and you programmed a scanner with the hopset frequencies in the correct order with no delay it still wouldn't work because there is no way the scanner could sync to it.

And even if the frequency hopping were disabled and stayed on a single frequency, the occupied bandwidth of the signal from a DTR/DLR is wider than what a narrowband receiver can accept. So even if a scanner could sync to it the scanner still won't receive it. And then you would still need to decode the VSELP digital modulation.

My wife and I were at a hamfest in NH in 2017 and had someone seriously try to listen us and failed of course. My wife had gone to one of the food vendors to get some lunch while I was still wandering around the fairgrounds. We were talking back and forth on our pair of DTR650s as she was trying to find out where I was so we could meet up. Since she was by herself at the time, a guy at table asked her what frequency we were using. She didn't know and asked me over the radio and said someone was asking her about it. I replied that they are digital radios operating on the 902-928MHz band and using FHSS. The guy said to her "Ohhh...so THAT's why I can't find you on my spectrum analyzer!!" LOL. He was looking for a strong narrowband signal to pop up in the usual spots in the UHF band. We were hiding in plain site with other FHSS stuff transmitting in the 902-928 band. As soon as he realized we were using FHSS digital radios he knew he wasn't going to be able to listen to us at all.

The bottom line is the DTRs and the DLRs are not monitorable on any consumer grade receiver (i.e., scanner) so don't even bother trying. They are completely safe from scanners.
 
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belvdr

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The bottom line is the DTRs and the DLRs are not monitorable on any consumer grade receiver (i.e., scanner) so don't even bother trying. They are completely safe from scanners.
SDRs too?
 

n1das

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SDRs too?

An SDR would need to receive the entire 902-928 band all at once. The DTRs and DLRs spend no more than 90ms on any given frequency in the hopset of 50 frequencies. That's about 11 hops/second. The hopset is spread out over the entire 902-928MHz band.

It is theoretically possible to capture a DTR or DLR transmission with a near field receiver but you would still need to decode the VSELP digital. While the DTRs and DLRs are technically not encrypted, they are hard enough to monitor that it's not going to be done with a consumer grade receiver. The only inexpensive and practical method to monitor DTRs and DLRs is to have one yourself, AND it has to be programmed to the same hopset, talkgroup ID, and 4-digit Profile ID Number (PIN) (if using Profile ID mode channels).

I purposely keep the default public group channels programmed into my DTRs in addition to my secure channels. I periodically hear people using the default public group channels in my travels. The DTRs and DLRs will talk to each other right out of the box at the factory default settings and people seem to use them at the factory defaults like FRS bubble packs. I am unable to monitor any DTRs and DLRs that have been custom programmed to make them secure.

The bottom line is they are safe from scanners.
 
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jaspence

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MURS is another choice. Cost is well below the Motorola radios, and the ones I have used are better than any FRS under most conditions.
 

n1das

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MURS is another choice. Cost is well below the Motorola radios, and the ones I have used are better than any FRS under most conditions.

Yep, MURS is another choice to consider. I always listen to Walmart* on 154.57 and 154.6 whenever I'm shopping there.
 

Kaleier1

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The DLR1020 has 2 channels.
The DLR1060 has 6 channels but radios manufactured after mid-2017 are expandable to 10 channels with the CPS.
The DTR600 has 30 channels and the DTR700 has 50 channels.
They all have more than enough channels because a channel can be configured in so many ways and can coexist with other DTRs and DLRs using the same hopset.

The channels are not crowded at all.

Wow. Thank you for the detailed explanation. I learned a lot.
 

DanRollman

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Where the DTRs and DLRs blow everything else away is aboard cruise ships. People who have used DTRs aboard cruise ships report having full ship coverage on all decks whereas a pair of UHF Part 90/95 portables on GMRS had difficulty penetrating more than about 2 decks. When deep inside the ship, you are essentially working inside a compartmentalized metal enclosure. The shorter wavelengths signals at 900MHz reflect in and out and around the nooks and crannies of the ship where longer wavelength signals won't. The many reflections actually help with the FHSS operation as the individual hot spots and dead spots hop also around as the frequency hops. The FHSS operation effectively stirs the modes and actually helps.

+1 on this. Took a week long Alaskan cruise last summer, and bought a set of 6 DLR radios specifically for the vacation (traveling with several families), having heard these 900 MHz FHSS units outperformed all others. Not believing it, I also brought a couple of analog/DMR combo radios just to test for myself. We purchased the DLR radios on eBay, where we spent less than $500 for 6 radios and a gang charger in excellent condition. The DLR radios had "almost" full coverage from deck 4 stern to deck 16 aft - very occasionally broke up at the most extreme distances. Analog operations (two CS751 VHF radios and two CS750 UHF radios, just for testings sake) didn't penetrate more than a few decks when separated aft to stern, or around 4-5 decks when on same end of ship, though the UHF versions seemed to do just a little bit better. DMR operations (the same CS751s and CS750s in DMR mode) made it a few decks further, perhaps due to the error correction, but communications were still virtually non-existent if separated by 6+ decks and a bit of horizontal distance as well. Only the DLR radios could penetrate 10+ decks at virtually any horizontal/diagonal distance to have almost complete ship coverage. Used the same DLR radios on the "jeep tour" when separated by about 2 miles with no trouble. With a group, I wouldn't take any radio on a cruise vacation other than a DLR/DTR set.

Dan
 

DanRollman

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The DLR1020 has 2 channels.
The DLR1060 has 6 channels but radios manufactured after mid-2017 are expandable to 10 channels with the CPS.
The DTR600 has 30 channels and the DTR700 has 50 channels.
They all have more than enough channels because a channel can be configured in so many ways and can coexist with other DTRs and DLRs using the same hopset.

The channels are not crowded at all. One of the benefits of FHSS is that radios can coexist with other signals in the band without interference. The "channels" the end user sees are actually talkgroup IDs for the particular frequency hopset they use. By FCC rule (FCC 15.247) a frequency hopping device operating in the 902-928MHz must use a frequency hopset with a minimum of 50 frequencies and a maximum transmit power of 1W (+30 dBm). The DTRs and DLRs have 10 hopsets available. Frequency hopset #1 is the default. The radios use 50 frequencies across the entire 902-928MHz band when they transmit.

I'm struggling to find it, but I also have a recollection that I read it would take something like 3,000 pairs of users (on unique hopsets) in a given area before DLR/DTR communications would start to notice perceptible interference. Compare that 22+ pairs of users on unique FRS channels in say a theme park before interference can be perceived. Plus, because of the FHSS technology, the DLR/DTR radios are basically impervious to jamming. By far the most resilient handheld simplex radios I know of. If we really wanted something akin to FRS to be more useful, reliable, less prone to interference, and more capable of massive numbers of unique users in a dense area, we should find a way to encourage mass production of 900 MHz FHSS radios rather than UHF analog radios on a handful of frequencies.
 

alcahuete

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The DLR radios had "almost" full coverage from deck 4 stern to deck 16 aft

The only reason you didn't have full ship coverage is due to the antenna on the DLR radios. The DTRs with the longer 6" 1/4 wave antennas will get you full ship coverage on the largest cruise ships in the world, pretty much guaranteed. I was just on a cruise in November and a family was using brand new "top-of-the-line" Baofeng DMR radios. They were confused why they weren't working. I whipped out the DTR and they were quite impressed. LOL! They are more costly than a cheap FRS bubble pack, but it's SO well worth it.
 

alcahuete

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Top of the line? What, cost a whole $35 each?

LMAO! Yes, that's why I put it in quotes. :D :D It was the DM-5R or whatever the heck it is. They wondered why they could barely get more than a couple decks and not off the ship. I have no idea what frequency they were using, as it was alpha tagged.
 

n1das

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New FRS radio in the works: Motorola Talkabout T47X (T470/T475)
FCC ID: AZ489FT4959

FCC ID: AZ489FT4959 was posted today on fccid.io. I get automatic email alerts whenever a Motorola FCC ID gets posted. The Motorola Talkabout T47X appears to be a lower cost version of the T800. The T47X appears to be a T80X (T800/T805) with Bluetooth and GPS data capability removed.

While the T47X doesn't have Bluetooth capability, it has some data capability. Motorola added an "Easy Pairing" feature help a group of T47X users quickly set up all radios in a group to the same channel and Interference Eliminator (read: Interference IGNORING) code. The Easy Pairing button on the T47X replaces the Bluetooth GPS data button on the T80X.

Bottom line is it's just another FRS bubble pack radio. <yawn> I'll pass. <yawn>
 
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n1das

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Motorolas are pricey. Can anyone recommend (from experience) any cheaper 900mhz channel hoppers?

Motorola Talkabout FRS radios are priced competitively with other FRS bubble packs. While the Motorola DLR and DTR radios are more pricey than FRS radios, they currently are the only game in town for 900MHz FHSS digital radios.
 
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bill4long

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Motorola Talkabout FRS radios are priced competitively with other FRS bubble packs. While the Motorola DLR and DTR radios are more pricey than FRS radios, they currently are the only game in town for 900MHz FHSS digital radios.

What is the difference between DLR and DTR?
 

n1das

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What is the difference between DLR and DTR?

DLR:
DLR = Digital Lightweight Radio, according to Motorola.

DTR:
 
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