Oklahoma City EDACS activity

[ttlradioman]

Springlake is BUSY tonight.

 

[mam1081]

Sounds like they are all busy!

I'm logging about 70 new radios every day on the new EDACS system. Listen for the ProVoice on the analog side. It's fairly easy to tell who is on PV.

 

[woodyrr]

This EDACS system is frustrating to someone like me, who's not as technically
knowledgable of it like you guys are.

Papadoc,

I think that I understand your frustration with this EDACS stuff. I suspect that your interest in monitoring may be much like mine; At home, keeping up with what is going on in and around my neighborhood; On the road, knowing what is going on to avoid an unfortunate encounter with a fire engine or police pursuit at an intersection. Unfortunately, the audio of the public safety portion of this system is not only digital, but also ProVoice digital. ProVoice digital audio is the exclusive property of the radio system manufacturer and no scanner, not even the state of the art models, is able understand the ProVoice signals, they simply ignore them.

You asked why program all the frequencies into a scanner. Although the important part of this system will eventually be exclusively ProVoice, identifying analog (non digital – non public safety) talkgroups for this system is not very exciting, but it is challenging and can be enjoyable to listen and try to figure out what each new analog talkgroup is used for.

I recommend that you browse the Texas radio discussion forum and read the first post in the first thread (the FAQ). In it L. Blanton, explains the nature of the San Antonio EDACS ProVoice system. Then, look through the Wichita Falls threads. Both of those cities have already been through this process and the threads are informative. The bottom line is that the most effective way to monitor Oklahoma City public safety communications for the time being is to scan the conventional VHF Police and UHF Fire channels until the links to the EDACS are disconnected and when that happens, as far as Police and Fire are concerned, that’s it. I regret that I can not be more helpful.

 

[mam1081]

I think I figured out how the Fire Department will be dispatched on the new system. As it is now there is VHF freq that you hear the DTMF and alarm tones go across to alert the station. Once all the older radio equipment is moved out, all the alerting will probably be done on the EDACS system. Right before a call, dispatch I-calls the various stations. I can pick it up on my 396 at times (so it's not always digital-but I don't know that it's ALWAYS analog either). If you see an I-call from LID 112, that's the fire dispatching radio. The stations/units can be found by taking the LID and subtracting 2160 - ie: Brush Pumper 37 would get an I-call from 112 to his radio of 2197.

If all of the above is correct, I'm assuming this would work: You could save the LID of the station near your house or business and have the scanner alert you as the station is alerted! Say you wanted that LID of 2197 to make your scanner beep. Just save it as i02187 as a talkgroup in your scaner. Set that one up to alert when it's in use, and it should beep (if you're not receiving something else when that alert goes out) when they are called. You could also set on up on i00112 to beep everytime an alert goes out from the FD.

What do you think of that!?!

 

[papadoc]

Thanks for your reply woodyrr.
I've yet to understand what's so super secret about fire department communications,
that warrants them using ProVoice.
Oh well...
I also appreciate everyone here who's keeping up with all this.
If nothing else, it makes for extremly interesting and informative reading.

 

[mam1081]

Well, hopefully they will keep some stuff in analog. I'm sure the Fire Ground and Fire Ops stuff will be in ProVoice (and trunked - which doesn't sound safe to me), but maybe this alerting will be in analog, so you might know that something is happening, just not know what!

 

[woodyrr]

Personal Uninformed Opinion

I really don't think that this is about secrecy. Oklahoma City specified a digital radio system and at the time that the contract was signed, if what I have read on this website is correct, M/A COM didn't offer a Project 25 compliant radio system (digital that scanners can understand). I'm speculating that Motorola thought they had OKC against the wall with the big M owning Oklahoma Public Safety and acted like it. Hungry M/A COM saw an opportunity to grab a big one and they grabbed it. I am not happy with the choice for this application for many reasons, but the decision has been made.

My primary interest is in fire communications and the ProVoice aspect of this thing really dissappoints me, especially since M/A COM now has a P25 solution as they call it. Pure speculation on my part is that ProVoice will go the way of M/A COM’s other proprietary digital solution, Aegis as I can’t imagine any Public Safety Professional selecting a non P25 system when there are competing compliant systems to choose from Motorola, M/A COM and who knows who else. Oklahoma City and the other ProVoice communities may be stuck with the choice that they have made and the best that we can hope for at this point is that it works to the City’s satisfaction.

MAM1081 is right, we need not give up. The system is not fully functional yet and I, for one, have read in this forum some unbelievably encouraging things about the final form that this system is going to take. Of that, time will tell.

 

[mam1081]

If they wanted secrecy, they would be all encrypted. Thank goodness they aren't ALL encrypted (only some channels).

As for Trunked ProVoice for fireground... sure it's easy for a FD on the other side of town to listen in, but think of the possible problems if the user can't hit one of the towers from 3 stories underground or something like that. If they were direct (and maybe even analog), it would be much more reliable for communications. Digital trunked fireground channels are just asking for problems I think.

Oh, and for P25 - the M/P7100 radios can usually do APCO-25 in conventional (non-trunked) mode. Perhaps some of the I-tac channels will be APCO-25 in the future.

 

[papadoc]

We've certainly come a long way since the days of scanners with crystals, haven't we?

 

[woodyrr]

Reading through some of the news posts on the home page I read a couple of articles where the fireground issue is a common one. It appears that if they set up a reliable way for the firefighters on the fireground to communicate, the dispatchers complain because they aren't in the loop. If they set it up so that the dispatchers can hear, the firefighters can't reliably hit the repeaters and can't talk to someone across the room. If I read correctly, for some reason, digital makes things worse in those situations. As I'm sure everyone has noticed, the OKC folks are going to have to get used to getting permission from their radios before they can talk. I think that you are right that in a very tense situation such as an interior fire attack or police tactical event, it is the lesser of two evils to abandon the trunked system in favor of analog simplex. Maybe the techs that are setting this one up have a solution worked out.

I have put the all call icall TG in my scanner to see if it works. I am embarassed to say that up until last night I kept wondering what all those talk groups that started with an upside down exclamation point were all about- then it hit me! It appears to work. The squelch activated backlight came on on my 396 which is locked on the TG and it was followed by a fire alarm on VHF. It did it again! - That is cool!

 

[woodyrr]

Fire Station Alerting

Mam1081,

I’m sure that you have already tested your fire station alerting hypothesis, but it appears to work.

There is also what appears to be a brief key up on TGID 2001 immediately before every fire alarm.

I have my scanner set to alert to TGID 2001 as a pre alert and then the individual icalls for stations 13, 23, and 6.

During the 19:00 audio test, the scanner responded in station order with the time intervals between 6. 13, and 23 about what you would expect them to be.

I put station 6 in because I figured that it would be busier than the others and I’d be more likely to catch an actual fire alarm. Does any body know what the busiest fire station in OKC is?

Thanks for figuring that out! It is fun to play with while it lasts.

P.S. Disregard the busiest fire station query. I caught a fire alarm for 13s and the scanner reacted to the icall ID for that station before the fire alarm was broadcast.

 

[OUAlumni]

If they were direct (and maybe even analog), it would be much more reliable for communications. Digital trunked fireground channels are just asking for problems I think.

If the incident involves going underground, the design of the OKC system did not support underground communications. The digital testing was a testament to this because if the location was underground, they did not test it and do not claim to provide coverage underground. OCFD should have an alternate, simplex, frequency available to do underground operations. Otherwise, Norman and Edmond don't have a problem with fireground operations on their trunked systems...

Oh, and for P25 - the M/P7100 radios can usually do APCO-25 in conventional (non-trunked) mode. Perhaps some of the I-tac channels will be APCO-25 in the future.

With a purchasable option, they can do P-25 trunked, too. M/A-COM is about as proud of their P-25 trunked flash upgrade as Motorola is. However, you won't find the I-TAC channels in P-25 because the FCC regulations that govern the use of those channel pairs require them to be in analog. Only in 700 MHz is there P-25 conventional mutual aid.

 

[fireant]

For those interested in Mam1081 post about the fire station alerting here is a list of the stations there locations and the ID you would program in.

Station 1= 820 NW 5th=i02161

Station 2=2917 E. Britton Rd=i02162

Station 3=11601 N. MacArthur=i02163

Station 4=100 SW 4th=i02164

Station 5=22nd and N. Broadway Ave=i02165

Station 6=620 NE 8th=i02166

Station 7=218 SW 23rd=i02167

Station 8=1934 West Exchange Ave=i02168

Station 9=1415 SW 89th=i02169

Station 10=2039 NW 16th=i02170

Station 11=900 NW 50th=i02171

Station 12=2121 ML King Ave=i02172

Station 13=6901 SE 74th=i02173

Station 14=3129 NW 23rd=i02174

Station 15=2817 NW 122nd=i02175

Station 16=405 SE 66th=i02177

Station 17=2716 NW 50th=i02177

Station 18=4016 N. Prospect=i02178

Station 19=940 SW 44th=i02179

Station 20=7929 SW 29th=i02180

Station 21=3240 SW 29th=i02181

Station 22=333 NW 92nd=i02182

Station 23=2812 S. Eastern Ave=i02183

Station 24=1500 N. Merdian=i02184

Station 25=2701 SW 59th=i02185

Station 27=6400 N. Westminster=i02187

Station 28=7101 S. Anderson Rd=i02188

Station 30=4343 Lake Hefner Dr=i02190

Station 31=618 N. Rockwell=i02191

Station 32=12233 N. Mustang Rd=i02192

Station 33=11630 SW 15th=i02193

Station 34=8617 N. Council=i02194

Station 35=13017 S. May Ave=i02195

Station 36=17700 SE 104th=i02196

Station 37=16820 N. Penn=i02197

For Airport fire the ID would be either=i02186 if the Airport Fire Dept old Station number was 26 or i02189 if it was Station number 29 cannot remember what it was before it went to private contractor.

fireant

 

[kikito]

If the incident involves going underground, the design of the OKC system did not support underground communications. The digital testing was a testament to this because if the location was underground, they did not test it and do not claim to provide coverage underground. OCFD should have an alternate, simplex, frequency available to do underground operations.

Regardless of simplex, trunked, digital or analog, when they're underground, in tunnels and other heavy structures, communications will be difficult. You would think with the planning, design and implementation of such a system, they would've included BDA's for those "hard to reach" places. It makes no sense that they wouldn't provide, even at extra cost, those kind of options.

At one point or another, while underground or whatever, they're going to have to call or receive from outside, especially for an emergency evacuation situation

 

[OUAlumni]

Regardless of simplex, trunked, digital or analog, when they're underground, in tunnels and other heavy structures, communications will be difficult. You would think with the planning, design and implementation of such a system, they would've included BDA's for those "hard to reach" places. It makes no sense that they wouldn't provide, even at extra cost, those kind of options.

Oklahoma City's RFP specifically stated that they did not want to install BDAs to enhance coverage of the system. Rather, they wanted the infrastructure that they were purchasing to provide the necessary coverage. The problem with a BDA is that it must be maintained - backup batteries, antenna systems, etc. and this all must be tested regularily or used regularily to ensure proper operation. To that end, there would potentially be question as to who is going to cover the cost for this - the owner of the building, or the City. Additionally, the BDA system could be comprimised in a fire event and could prove unreliable anyway.

At one point or another, while underground or whatever, they're going to have to call or receive from outside, especially for an emergency evacuation situation

Absolutely - so give the battalion chief a simplex frequency and fireground talk groups on the system so that he - a trained firefighter, and not a radio technician, can evaluate each individual situation and choose the proper communications tool to use on the fireground.

 

[mam1081]

If the incident involves going underground, the design of the OKC system did not support underground communications. The digital testing was a testament to this because if the location was underground, they did not test it and do not claim to provide coverage underground. OCFD should have an alternate, simplex, frequency available to do underground operations. Otherwise, Norman and Edmond don't have a problem with fireground operations on their trunked systems...



With a purchasable option, they can do P-25 trunked, too. M/A-COM is about as proud of their P-25 trunked flash upgrade as Motorola is. However, you won't find the I-TAC channels in P-25 because the FCC regulations that govern the use of those channel pairs require them to be in analog. Only in 700 MHz is there P-25 conventional mutual aid.

I believe that option for P25 trunking is for a true 9600 baud trunked system. This is a standard (unlike the EDACS or 3600 baud Moto systems around (Edmond & Norman & the State SZ). EF Johnson, M/A Comm, and Motorola all sell radios that work on a true P25 system. On this type of system, there is NO ANALOG - it's all digital. Examples are Austin, TX and the State of Colorado.




Also, the fire station alerting with I-calls seems to be following the numbering scheme that I mentioned earlier. I have a little more than half the stations ID'd with a call-out from dispatch.

 

[kikito]

Oklahoma City's RFP specifically stated that they did not want to install BDAs to enhance coverage of the system. Rather, they wanted the infrastructure that they were purchasing to provide the necessary coverage. The problem with a BDA is that it must be maintained - backup batteries, antenna systems, etc. and this all must be tested regularily or used regularily to ensure proper operation. To that end, there would potentially be question as to who is going to cover the cost for this - the owner of the building, or the City. Additionally, the BDA system could be comprimised in a fire event and could prove unreliable anyway.

Uhm, interesting good points and info on their choices. I travel regularly to Oklahoma, in case you're wondering. So all of this is very interesting to me, especially when comparing to the decisions made up here in Alaska in regards to similar issues.

Absolutely - so give the battalion chief a simplex frequency and fireground talk groups on the system so that he - a trained firefighter, and not a radio technician, can evaluate each individual situation and choose the proper communications tool to use on the fireground.

That sounds like the best compromise and solution, especially if it works and chosen by the firefighters themselves.

 

[mam1081]

Uhm, interesting good points and info on their choices. I travel regularly to Oklahoma, in case you're wondering. So all of this is very interesting to me, especially when comparing to the decisions made up here in Alaska in regards to similar issues.





That sounds like the best compromise and solution, especially if it works and chosen by the firefighters themselves.

I would think all the FD radios would have the "OKC DIR 1" and "OKC DIR 2" channels also (simplex analog), but I don't know for sure. Anyone with some inside info???

 

[dstew67]

You know, what we're talking about is one of the same limitations the responding agencies ran into when responding to the World Trade Center on 9/11. Radios couldn't get out to the repeater. One of the things they considered in hindsight might have solved the problem was to have put up repeaters inside the building. I'm sure simplex would not have reached from the top to the bottom of the building in that case, but we only have a couple buildings here in OKC where simplex would not be a realistic solution.

If the radio engineers here have not considered this, now would be the time to implement it, before too many radios get programmed and distributed.

 

[mam1081]

So we should equip all high-rise building (>10 floors? and with a basement) with their own 800 repeater? Sounds a little like overkill (and mucho $$$). Should we use a different tone on each building - use up all the available channels in the P/M7100 (65,535 with the extended memory option) radios? Can you imagine people trying to swap channels to get on the channel for that building? Whoa. Mass confusion. I do know that the Motorola XTS5000 offers an option for fireground operations. The scene control manager can tell all the radios to goto a specific channel (all without the users manually switching!). Wouldn't that be nice?

I think KISS (Keep it simple, stupid) should be used. For close-quarters work, analog simplex is the easiest, probably most reliable, and cheapest (nothing more to buy!!).


As for programming, I would venture to guess that most (if not all) of the handhelds have been programmed already. They could be doing it at training though. As for mobiles, it's anyone's guess.