Orange County FD UHF link to 46.16

[OCEC381]

Hi All,

I am currently trying to put together a list of all the agencies and sites that currently have a UHF link to OC Fire Control's 46.16. Any help on the matter would be greatly appreciated. My firec ompnay currently uses the Cronomer Valley link on Cronomer Hill.

 

[GTR8000]

You'll find a ton of info for OC on EastCoastScanning. We keep the threads pretty up to date, so start there first. Go through the Fire / Rescue Services (COUNTYWIDE) thread, then all the Battalion threads, and you should find everything your heart desires.

East Coast Scanning Resources - Orange County

If you know of anything that's inaccurate, or have anything to add, please post it in this thread so we can update the site.

 

[APX8000]

Here you go....

Battalion 1 area: Circleville FD's 458.5875 (114.8), Silver Lake FD's 458.1125 (664)
Battalion 2 area: Bullville FD's 460.975R (136.5), Montgomery FD's 453.825R (167.9)
Battalion 3 area: Cronomer Valley FD's 460.600R (123.0)
Battalion 4 area: Highland Falls FD's 460.475R (423)
Battalion 5 area: Washingtonville FD's 453.550 (315)
Battalion 6 area: none
Battalion 7 area: none
Battalion 8 area: 464.975R (632)
Battalion 9 area: Goshen FD's 453.1625R (411)

Montgomery's 453.825 link also repeats 46.220 PL 123.0 (Fire 2). NYCOMCO also has a link to 46.220 on talkgroup 05-005 off the Beacon site.

Woodbury Fire is also in the process of putting 2 UHF repeaters up on Arden. I'm speculating one will be for Operations and the other will be a link to 46.160, but nothing is confirmed yet.

 

[OCEC381]

Thank you, I apreciate the feed back.

 

[KC2zZe]

Here you go....

Battalion 1 area: Circleville FD's 458.5875 (114.8), Silver Lake FD's 458.1125 (664)
Battalion 2 area: Bullville FD's 460.975R (136.5), Montgomery FD's 453.825R (167.9)
Battalion 3 area: Cronomer Valley FD's 460.600R (123.0)
Battalion 4 area: Highland Falls FD's 460.475R (423)
Battalion 5 area: Washingtonville FD's 453.550 (315)
Battalion 6 area: none
Battalion 7 area: none
Battalion 8 area: 464.975R (632)
Battalion 9 area: Goshen FD's 453.1625R (411)

Montgomery's 453.825 link also repeats 46.220 PL 123.0 (Fire 2). NYCOMCO also has a link to 46.220 on talkgroup 05-005 off the Beacon site.

Woodbury Fire is also in the process of putting 2 UHF repeaters up on Arden. I'm speculating one will be for Operations and the other will be a link to 46.160, but nothing is confirmed yet.

I am the communications officer for Woodbury Fire and can confirm your speculation. The only thing holding up construction of the system is the lack of movement on the part of the Federal Communications Commission in the further processing of our license application with them.

 

[oc911emsandfire]

Are there any VHF-high band links to 46.16? How does the C/Newburgh and C/Middletown contact Orange 911, or do they have low band or UHF radios in their trucks as well?

 

[APX8000]

Are there any VHF-high band links to 46.16? How does the C/Newburgh and C/Middletown contact Orange 911, or do they have low band or UHF radios in their trucks as well?

For the most part, when City of Newburgh transmits a second alarm, Incident Command does it through their dispatch. Their dispatch contacts Orange 911 by phone for the mutual aid assigment. If they have to contact them directly, they use low band radios in the equipment.

Middletown uses UHF now and I believe their Chief's use Circleville's link for Orange 911 but also have low band in the equipment.

Alot of departments use other departments links...with permission. For example, Winona Lake, Orange Lake, New Windsor and Cornwall-on-Hudson use Cronomer's 460.600. With the County migrating to a UHF plan, you will see alot more of that. I also heard Air National Guard (primary VHF) come up on Cronomer's link as well as Salisbury Mills occasionally.

Orange 911 also listens to both Newburgh and Middletown at the console, so if they heear a "reported structure fire" etc. go out, they will ususally pull the box assigment ahead of time and tone it out before the phone call even comes in.

 

[APX8000]

I am the communications officer for Woodbury Fire and can confirm your speculation. The only thing holding up construction of the system is the lack of movement on the part of the Federal Communications Commission in the further processing of our license application with them.

Glad to see you guys are putting a link up as well. Did you get other departments on to share the cost or are you going at it alone? I know Monroe and Tuxedo are being a bit stubborn making the switch from VHF. Cornwall refuses to leave the low band world.

While I have your ear...I see your systems are going up on Arden. Several months ago a new tower went up on the hill north of Arden. If you come down 17 towards the tolls, it is to the left of Arden between Arden and the Bull Pond mountain tower used by West Point. I can't figure out who put it up. Some say Thruway Authority, others say West Point. It's not you guys right?

And good luck with the FCC...you'll need it. They take forever.

 

[radioman2001]

It usually is not the FCC, bu the co-ordinator. Once past the co-ordinator, every time we had anything go before the FCC, it was done in less than 1 week. Possibly, they can't get a frequency for that area on UHF.
I know this topic is for Orange County, but the same question for me is for Ulster, specifically New Paltz. Anyone know?

 

[62Truck]

Radioman2001 New Patlz FD last that I knew they were on one of NYCOMCO's LTR systems for inter department communications.. Ulster county has a frequency listed in the DB 154.745 listed as ulster county fire ems paging, which is the wrong freq the actual freq is 154.740 but that frequency is Kerhonkson Accord Rescue

 

[radioman2001]

I was looking for fire dispatch, which is Low Band?, and if anybody was retransmitting on UHF. I see that KEH912 is for low band freq only, so I guess the database listing of 154.745 is in error, and according to CFR 90.20 is an invalid frequency.

 

[SCPD]

In reference to the County going to UHF, how is this going so far. I know some FD's are using F-2 or F-3 for primary ops now. Thanks.

 

[GTR8000]

While I have your ear...I see your systems are going up on Arden. Several months ago a new tower went up on the hill north of Arden. If you come down 17 towards the tolls, it is to the left of Arden between Arden and the Bull Pond mountain tower used by West Point. I can't figure out who put it up. Some say Thruway Authority, others say West Point. It's not you guys right?

Woodbury's license shows the repeaters at Arden House.

The Thruway, on the other hand, has been doing a lot of work lately on their radio system. They are installing maintenance repeaters in West Nyack and Harriman, as well as building a new radio tower in Airmont, which will eventually host the repeater they currently have in Mahwah.

I'm not 100% certain if the new tower you saw near Bull Pond was built by the Thruway, but it would make sense. The current repeater is at the toll plaza, not at any great height, and if they move the Mahwah repeater to Airmont, they'll presumably need more range towards Sloatsburg from the Harriman repeater.

 

[KC2zZe]

Are there any VHF-high band links to 46.16? How does the C/Newburgh and C/Middletown contact Orange 911, or do they have low band or UHF radios in their trucks as well?

There are two fixed VHF high band links to low band that I am aware of. One is Otisville's 154.355, 97.4. It's default setting is to scan between channels 1 (46.160, 123.0) and 10 (45.780, 94.8). It is steerable so that Orange's F2 thru F9 can be monitored as well as Sullivan's F1 thru F5. The other is over the US Military Academy's Project 25 trunked system. That link, over talkgroup 1592, is only active when a radio on the system is selected on that channel.

Middletown uses UHF now and I believe their Chief's use Circleville's link for
Orange 911 but also have low band in the equipment.

While Circleville's link is in their current radio channel plan, Middletown does have their own link over 460.200R, 123.0. This link is also steerable to low band channels 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 10.

Glad to see you guys are putting a link up as well. Did you get other departments on to share the cost or are you going at it alone? I know Monroe and Tuxedo are being a bit stubborn making the switch from VHF. Cornwall refuses to leave the low band world.

Woodbury is financing the entire project alone. The success that Highland Falls has had with their migration from low band to UHF has reportedly caused a stir in Cornwall. Change is in the winds.

While I have your ear...I see your systems are going up on Arden. Several months ago a new tower went up on the hill north of Arden. If you come down 17 towards the tolls, it is to the left of Arden between Arden and the Bull Pond mountain tower used by West Point. I can't figure out who put it up. Some say Thruway Authority, others say West Point. It's not you guys right?

I am aware of that tower and have no idea who's it is.

It usually is not the FCC, bu the co-ordinator. Once past the co-ordinator, every time we had anything go before the FCC, it was done in less than 1 week. Possibly, they can't get a frequency for that area on UHF.

Please provide me with any contact information you may use with the Commission. I am not sure what services you've used for coordination, but we used APCO and that phase of the project was the most expidicious (sp?) part. They found reasonable clean frequencies for us and moved the coordination process along for us quite quickly. Our problem rests solely with the FCC. The last action date on our ap was in June. We are now well into September. If you know of someone within the Commission that can move an application in one week, please share. I am running into console construction deadlines and have no equipment to install.

In reference to the County going to UHF, how is this going so far. I know some FD's are using F-2 or F-3 for primary ops now. Thanks.

UHF F2 should not be getting use for primary operations. That is the Emergency Fireground channel. From the agencies that I've spoken to that have made the move to the county standard, all are pleased with it. I can't wait to move my department over.

 

[SCPD]

KC2zZe,
I was refering to the Low Band System, that some FD's were using 46.22 or 46.30 for primary ops,not the UHF System that was set up.Whould you know if Port Jervis switched to UHF? Thanks.

 

[k2hz]

we used APCO and that phase of the project was the most expidicious (sp?) part. They found reasonable clean frequencies for us and moved the coordination process along for us quite quickly. Our problem rests solely with the FCC. The last action date on our ap was in June. We are now well into September. If you know of someone within the Commission that can move an application in one week, please share. I am running into console construction deadlines and have no equipment to install.

.

I can't offer specific help but I think I can shed some light on the process and reason for the delay.

The FCC usually processes a coordinated application quickly unless it is "Offlined for Review" in which case it sits around waiting for someone to look at and resolve the problems with the application that kicked it out of the automated process.

I looked at pending applications coordianted by APCO and I assume you are concerned with the Village of Woodbury application filed in June. ULS shows it is Offlined for multiple "Engineering Review" issues plus "Alert List". I think this all relates to the 470 band frequecies involved. The problem with these frequencies are that, while APCO has coordinated them for Public Safety, the FCC has to look at co-channel TV broadcast issues. I have not been involved with any 470-512 license applications so I don't know how long this takes but I suspect it can be ugly, especially with DTV conversion issues and possible further UHF TV spectrum re-allocation issues affecting the broadcasters.

Where I am upstate, we don't have the 470-512 issues but we have to deal with the "Line A" Canadian issues that can hold up an application for months to a year or more while changes are made to appease the Canadians.

If I were in your position, I would see if APCO can give you some guidance on what the FCC issues are and possible contacts at the FCC.

Good luck!

 

[KC2zZe]

I was refering to the Low Band System, that some FD's were using 46.22 or 46.30 for primary ops,not the UHF System that was set up.Whould you know if Port Jervis switched to UHF? Thanks.

Understood; you are correct - the following departments have been using VHF-low band for primary ops for quite a while now and will continue to do so for the forseeable future:

Campbell Hall (46.22)
Chester (46.22 - with UHF capability)
Cornwall (46.22)
Florida (46.30 - with UHF capability)
Fort Montgomery (46.30)
Greenwood Lake (46.30, with move to 471.350 coming very soon) and
Port Jervis (46.20)

I looked at pending applications coordianted by APCO and I assume you are concerned with the Village of Woodbury application filed in June. ULS shows it is Offlined for multiple "Engineering Review" issues plus "Alert List". I think this all relates to the 470 band frequecies involved. The problem with these frequencies are that, while APCO has coordinated them for Public Safety, the FCC has to look at co-channel TV broadcast issues. I have not been involved with any 470-512 license applications so I don't know how long this takes but I suspect it can be ugly, especially with DTV conversion issues and possible further UHF TV spectrum re-allocation issues affecting the broadcasters.

Your assumption is correct; that's the application I'm directly concerned with. The thing that stumps me the most is that Nassau County Police - one county away, as the crow flys, with Westchester between us - already uses both T-band pairs that we're requesting. I green-lighted the selection of those freqs with the expectation that that system will one day soon be turned off after NCPD moves to it's new trunked system.

If I were in your position, I would see if APCO can give you some guidance on what the FCC issues are and possible contacts at the FCC.

Good luck!

Already being done and thank you!

 

[k2hz]

Your assumption is correct; that's the application I'm directly concerned with. The thing that stumps me the most is that Nassau County Police - one county away, as the crow flys, with Westchester between us - already uses both T-band pairs that we're requesting. I green-lighted the selection of those freqs with the expectation that that system will one day soon be turned off after NCPD moves to it's new trunked system.

I think the problem is that you are on the northwestern fringe of the area where 470 use is permitted and the FCC is concerned with protecting TV stations to the west of you. Sections 90.301-309 of the FCC Rules have very detailed engineering standards for 470-512 MHz frequencies that involve not only base site location, HAAT and ERP but also mobile radius of operation. I assume these were considered in your system design but the FCC will really scrutinize the details before they grant a license for that band. I doub't APCO would have looked at this as part of their normal coordination process unless you also had them do the system design engineering.

 

[KC2zZe]

I think the problem is that you are on the northwestern fringe of the area where 470 use is permitted and the FCC is concerned with protecting TV stations to the west of you. Sections 90.301-309 of the FCC Rules have very detailed engineering standards for 470-512 MHz frequencies that involve not only base site location, HAAT and ERP but also mobile radius of operation. I assume these were considered in your system design but the FCC will really scrutinize the details before they grant a license for that band. I doub't APCO would have looked at this as part of their normal coordination process unless you also had them do the system design engineering.

Actually, APCO did do that for us - every painful bit of it. Believe it or not, it wasn't so much to protect television stations west of us; it was more to protect NCPD - despite the fact that they are moving further up the T-band on their new trunked system. There's a lot of weight given to incumbent users of channels. Moreso then I think should be in some cases, esp. considering how many of them are hoarding frequencies....but, I digress and don't want to hijack the thread.

FCC Gettysburg now reporting sometime in mid-October for us. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[radioman2001]

Yes, T-bands can be a problem, I tried for over 10 years to get some for my department, first the co-ordinator (IMSA)said we were too far(more than 50 miles) from NYC, then they said they had to protect Nassau County. In the end we gave up. Apparently it pays to have a highly paid Lawyer in DC to get anything, since Westchester County got most of the frequencies we applied for, when Motorola put up their trunking system.As far as TV protection, I think it has more to do with protecting you as opposed to the TV station. New Jersey has had untold problems with TV frequencies every time there is a band opening..