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Palomar 225 amp with a smoking resistor

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AronDouglas

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I can physically hear the relays click over when I flip the switches. Yes I know your suppose to be able to hear them because its a mechanical device. But when the amp is on and I flip the pre-amp on, I hear the relay(s) flip over and the high/low power light comes on...not normal operations. I've read where the relays are the most common part to go bad on these things, so I'm replacing cheap parts until I get a working amp. I know it snot the preferred way to fix something, but I have no history on this thing so I dont know whats bad/going bad.
 

JayMojave

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Hello AD: Trouble shooting any piece of equipment is done on a test bench with the right stuff.

That is for a amp you will need a 12 volt supply at say 20 amps or more, a antenna or dummy load, a radio, a RF Probe on a VTVM, or equivalent, and a schematic diagram. Successful trouble shooting isn't done by word of mouth or friends trying to help you. As you work as a repair dude you get better and better with each repair.

I have had friends who are experts on some equipment and be wrong with their suggestions.

Side walk supervisors exist all over. You don't have the poop until its on the bench being tested.

Hope this helps.

Jay in the Mojave
 

WA0CBW

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From the 10,000 foot troubleshooting level......... You said you changed out the switches and the LED's; why? I would go back and re-check the wiring of the switches and LED's. Then hook it up and do some testing to see what isn't working (no RF output; low RF output, etc.). What didn't work after you replaced the diode?
BB
 

AronDouglas

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From the 10,000 foot troubleshooting level......... You said you changed out the switches and the LED's; why? I would go back and re-check the wiring of the switches and LED's. Then hook it up and do some testing to see what isn't working (no RF output; low RF output, etc.). What didn't work after you replaced the diode?
BB

I replaced the LEDs because my friend has a black/red theme on his radio and he thought the original switches where ugly. The LED's can be replaced and wired up by a child and the switches are idiot proof to hook up. I have tested it with all the stock parts on( stock switches, LEDs and antenna connectors) and it has the same problems then as it does now..

Originally one side of the diode was smoking and melting the solder. I replaced it and changed the power polarity. It didn't smoke or get insanely hot and melt the solder after that. Problem fixed. Next problem is the amp/pre-amp being on and making the high/low power light come on. This is not normal operation (obviously), so I'm trying to fix it.

I know the amp is not operation correctly, so why on earth would I hook it up to a $500 radio and $200 set of antennas and wiring.???? (thats the only radio and antennas I have access to) I got the amp used not knowing anything about it and I was suppose to send it off to a CB guy to test it out. I'd rather not send him a broke amp and ruin his tools. An amp is nothing more than a power amplifier, its just components and a circuit board..I can fix that (I'm not too much of a software guy though).

While I would like to run a full series of test, I do not have all the proper tools. I have a good power source, a good multi meter and I'm decent as soldering. After my preliminary test I decided to replace the known bad (or potentially problem causing) parts and work form there. These parts are cheap and since I dont have a history on this amp, I'd rather have new parts to eliminate some possibilities. The board is not physically cracked in half and there are no giant burn marks or exploded parts, I'm pretty sure I can fix it.
 

KC4RAF

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I've not seen where you have the schematic for

that unit. Take a look at this website's schematic and see if it's a close fit:

Google Image Result for http://www.cbtricks.com/Amp/palomar_other/250R%20600p%20landscape%20B.gif

(that's a long URL for sure.)
Of interest will be the biasing resistors to the finals. Check them and see if they are within tolerance; and from that point on, do a circuit check throughout.

edit: once you're on that page, right click and save that picture to your harddrive. You can then click on it and enlarge to your hearts desire.
also, see how close those transistor voltages are, (bottom of picture left side). Just VOMIT, and you'll soon find the problem.
 
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XTS3000

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Polamar 225 amp with a smoking resistor

The resistor that is smoking and getting hot is part of the output combiner network. If this resistor is getting smoking hot, that means one (or both) of the power transistors is shorted out and bad. Replace the white circular transistors and your amp will work again. Also you need to replace the burnt resistor and toroid combiner network.
 

prcguy

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You just named off about $75 in parts, if the OP buys them and it turns out they didn't need replacing are you willing to reimburse him for the cost?

Personally i think the amp was hooked up backwards based on the bad reverse protection diode and it may have trashed the PA transistors and other components but unless the parts are tested its just a guess.
prcguy


The resistor that is smoking and getting hot is part of the output combiner network. If this resistor is getting smoking hot, that means one (or both) of the power transistors is shorted out and bad. Replace the white circular transistors and your amp will work again. Also you need to replace the burnt resistor and toroid combiner network.
 
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AronDouglas

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The resistor that is smoking and getting hot is part of the output combiner network. If this resistor is getting smoking hot, that means one (or both) of the power transistors is shorted out and bad. Replace the white circular transistors and your amp will work again. Also you need to replace the burnt resistor and toroid combiner network.

Funny thing about terminology...its was actually a diode. And it is fixed. I do plan on changing out the transistors though. Turns out my local radio shack has them.
 

prcguy

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The power or PA transistors are not sold through Radio Shack and they probably run $25 to $40 each depending on the type.
prcguy

Edit: if the PA transistors are SD1446 they run $79.90 for a matched pair from RF Parts.


Funny thing about terminology...its was actually a diode. And it is fixed. I do plan on changing out the transistors though. Turns out my local radio shack has them.
 
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wx5uif

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Polamar 225 amp with a smoking resistor

Radio shack should have them. They are a very common transistor. I would think you should be able to test them with a volt meter. I'm sure in the configuration they are using it is just acting as a switching transistor.
 

prcguy

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AronDouglas

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The power or PA transistors are not sold through Radio Shack and they probably run $25 to $40 each depending on the type.
prcguy

Edit: if the PA transistors are SD1446 they run $79.90 for a matched pair from RF Parts.

Oh, yes sorry. Yah, I hope those aren't bad lol. Mr Tim over at SnakeRadioCustoms is going to test this amp for me. I think he might (dont hold me to that) be able to upgrade those for me if they are bad.
 

AronDouglas

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Been testing resistors and I've come across 2 that show voltage for half a second then go blank. So I've got 2 bad resistors thus far.
 

RC286

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Testing resistors should be done by removing one leg and using the ohms scale.

you cant test them by measuring voltage drop without knowing what the current through the resistor is as well, and then crunching the simple
R=E/I formula.


So your testing the 2N3904's?

Testing PNP transistors is very simple. You should ideal use a meter with a diode forward voltage test.

It will basically be like testing two diodes with their cathodes attached together.
By placing the negative lead on the base, and the positive lead on the collector or emitter, you should get
the forward voltage reading of the PN junction, which for silicon should be right around 0.7v give or take the
tolerance of your meter. Reversing these leads should give you a overload or OL reading.
emitter to collector in any direction should give an OL reading unless voltage is applied to the base of the
transistor. If you get a 0v reading or, in most cases the meters will beep at you. It means you have a shorted
junction in the transistor. If you get an OL reading when you should be expecting to see the forward voltage reading, you have an open junction. In these two cases the transistor is bad.

This test must be done with the transistor removed from the circuit as any biasing resistors between base to collector or base to emitter can cause false readings. Capacitors will also cause false readings as your
meter will charge them up, giving you a brief reading until the voltage stabilized to the voltage applied by
the meter.

On the note of the relays. There are two, one is for the preamp, and one is for the RF. The preamp relay
will click when the preamp switch is flicked. This controls the RF pathway to either pass through the
preamp or be routed around it. The transistors in the preamp always have supply voltage present, they just dont output a signal if no
signal is applied to their base. Its just a simple re-route with a relay that is used.

When the mic keys up, the amp senses the carrier of the radio and activates the RF relay, this changes the path of the RF from the preamp (which flows in one direction, from the antenna to the radio) and routes
it to the amplifiers finals. The finals in the radio essentially become the driver transistors for the finals in
the amp, and they pump up the power.

Keep in mind, if your amp was not designed with an SSB delay in it, and you plan to operate SSB on it,
due to sidebands absence or suppression of the AM carrier, the relay will chatter as you speak into the
mic as the circuit in the amp is expecting to see a constant carrier all the time. If this is the case, adding
a 1000uF capacitor across the RF relays terminals will add a delay to the amp. You may want to have a
switch to enable/disable it, as it will add a delay of around 1 - 2 sec. This added 1.5 sec delay on my
amp, and works very well for SSB, the amp does not cut out or have the relay chatter from the lack of
carrier. Down side is, you loose instant receive upon releasing the key, there is a 1-2 sec delay before the
amp switches back over to receive.

EDIT:
I also must have missed the reverse polarity deal. That diode is a reverse polarity protection diode. Replace it as it is sure to have failed and should not be trusted as a future reverse polarity protection device. Now that said. Resistors and capacitors are probably fine, as the diode SHOULD have reduced the reverse polarity to 0.7v (the forward voltage drop of the diode) resistors wont care about polarity, and I'm sure the
electrolytic capacitors barely blinked at seeing reverse polarity of 0.7v for the short period they did. (you would know otherwise as they would
have went pop). Though, depending on how long you left the power applied, as the junction in the diode breaks down, the forward voltage will
increase above the 0.7v until finally going open and the full 12v will then be present reverse polarity to the system.

Check your small signal and switching transistors first, as these are off the shelf cheap parts to replace.
Based on the schematic provided (although not guaranteed 100% accurate to your model) they all appear to be PNP types. See my above
described testing method. If any have failed, replace, but do not yet power the amp. Next test the finals. Again, same method. But because the SD1446 is an NPN transistor, the readings will be opposite to what I described for the PNP transistors.

It doesn't take much reverse voltage to kill a transistor, and i'm betting unfortunately, that that is what happened when you hooked it up incorrectly initially is that its the finals that have opened up. Had the protection diode had not done its job, you would have got a nice fireworks
show. The amp was "probably" in working order when you got it.

If the finals are the case, now is your deliberation, to repair or replace. The finals as mention may run you $80 for a matched pair. (yes matched is critical), it means they are in balance so they share the load equally, so one doesn't over heat, cause non-linearity in the amp, cause
distortion to the signal or worst case, break into oscillation and go out in a fireworks show. So even if only one is bad, expect to replace both for
optimum performance. I picked up my older Palomar 200W amp for $75 used and working from a reputable local seller. so replacing with a known
working unit may be the best route in this case.

Luckily, these things are pretty simple, not a lot of possible parts to fail. Best of luck on the repair.

Cheers and 73's
 
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RC286

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Regarding my previous post, Sorry I got messed up the transistors are all NPN.
My method of testing was correct, I just got my BJT junctions confused. That's what I get for posting
when I am half asleep.
 

AronDouglas

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I took a crash course in transistors and other small electronics on YouTube last night, so yah, I'm ready to start testing crap :) I can build a house, fix 99% or carb engines (still working on fuel injected engines) and I can, to a small degree, build computers...but small electronics have always eluded me.

I figured you mean NPN, but oh well.

I'm testing resistors tonight and I've tested 6 so far and I cant get a reading. I get a spike at first then it goes blank. I'm using a Fieldpiece LT17 meter (really good meter, its my dads hes had for years and hes an AC tech). I tested around till I got around to a 100Ohm (orange black orange, gold) and I get 106 on the meter. So I went back and tested the others and they are still blank.
 
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