SDS100/SDS200: Police Dispatch Issue

[halltristan]

I’m new to radio scanning. Recently purchased a new SDS100 which has since been properly updated with national database, fully upgraded (DMR, NXDN, Pro Voice, and Waterfall), and programmed for local scanning using Sentinel (Whitley County, Kentucky (KY) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference). I’ve also programmed it so that certain local channels flash lights (e.g., blue for police dispatch).

While scanning I frequently get hits for local police (sheriff and city) and the blue light blinks accordingly; however, very little or no audio occurs. Sometimes there will be a second of audio and then cut out—never more. I’ve set the channel delay from 2 seconds to 4, but that hasn’t fixed it.

Am I doing something wrong? Local channels aren’t encrypted according to RR; and comparatively no other channels in my area are encrypted, I have no trouble with other departments, so it seems unlikely that local police has changed and RR simply hasn’t updated. And with the DMR and NXDN upgrades I should be able to listen, but can’t. Any suggestions?

 

[hiegtx]

I’m new to radio scanning. Recently purchased a new SDS100 which has since been properly updated with national database, fully upgraded (DMR, NXDN, Pro Voice, and Waterfall), and programmed for local scanning using Sentinel (Whitley County, Kentucky (KY) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference). I’ve also programmed it so that certain local channels flash lights (e.g., blue for police dispatch).

While scanning I frequently get hits for local police (sheriff and city) and the blue light blinks accordingly; however, very little or no audio occurs. Sometimes there will be a second of audio and then cut out—never more. I’ve set the channel delay from 2 seconds to 4, but that hasn’t fixed it.

Am I doing something wrong? Local channels aren’t encrypted according to RR; and comparatively no other channels in my area are encrypted, I have no trouble with other departments, so it seems unlikely that local police has changed and RR simply hasn’t updated. And with the DMR and NXDN upgrades I should be able to listen, but can’t. Any suggestions?

Actually. you do have some encrypted channels.


Under the mode column for the Uhf Sheriff's dispatch frequency, look at the notation NXDN48E. That upper case E indicates encryption has been reported, in use all the time. So, when encryption is actually in use, the scanner will not produce any audio. On P25 trunked systems, the scanner usually stops on the talkgroup just long enough (fractions of a second) to recognize the encryption & then it moves on. It might be quite that smooth on NXDN, since it apparently (from your comments) it is staying on the channel, but you are not hearing any intelligible audio.

Corbin & Williamsburg also show an encrypted channel.

It's also possible that one or more of their other channels are also encrypted, but no one has submitted that information for inclusion in the database. Use the Channel soft key to hold on the channels where it seems to stop, but no audio. Look closely at the display, and I suspect that you will see Enc (for encrypted) on the display screen.

 

[halltristan]

Actually. you do have some encrypted channels.
View attachment 170221

Under the mode column for the Uhf Sheriff's dispatch frequency, look at the notation NXDN48E. That upper case E indicates encryption has been reported, in use all the time. So, when encryption is actually in use, the scanner will not produce any audio. On P25 trunked systems, the scanner usually stops on the talkgroup just long enough (fractions of a second) to recognize the encryption & then it moves on. It might be quite that smooth on NXDN, since it apparently (from your comments) it is staying on the channel, but you are not hearing any intelligible audio.

Corbin & Williamsburg also show an encrypted channel.
View attachment 170222
It's also possible that one or more of their other channels are also encrypted, but no one has submitted that information for inclusion in the database. Use the Channel soft key to hold on the channels where it seems to stop, but no audio. Look closely at the display, and I suspect that you will see Enc (for encrypted) on the display screen.

That makes a lot of sense. I didn’t know that the “E” stood for encrypted.

I don’t understand how public agencies, receiving public funds, are getting away with encrypted, non-public, stuff like this. Is it possible to obtain the encryption key through a public records request? Has anyone tried it? And is it possible to program the SDS100 with the encryption key to monitor those channels?

 

[AK9R]

I don’t understand how public agencies, receiving public funds, are getting away with encrypted, non-public, stuff like this. Is it possible to obtain the encryption key through a public records request? Has anyone tried it? And is it possible to program the SDS100 with the encryption key to monitor those channels?

They "get away with" it because they can make a case that encrypting traffic is for officer safety.

Public records request? Doubtful.

Anyone tried? Possibly, but the brick walls would be high and wide.

Program an SDS100 with encryption key? Not possible as the SDS100, and no scanner available for sale in the U.S., has provisions for handling an encryption key.

There's really no point discussing the why's and where-for's of encryption of public safety radio traffic. That dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp in this forum many times over.

 

[hiegtx]

That makes a lot of sense. I didn’t know that the “E” stood for encrypted.

An upper case E indicates that encryption is being used full time on that frequency (or talkgroup in a trunked system). A lower case e indicates that encryption may be used part of the time, but not always. Remember that the tag for encryption is based on whatever information has been submitted to the database. If no one reports that encryption is used, then the database entry of 'no encryption' may be inaccurate.

 

[n1chu]

That makes a lot of sense. I didn’t know that the “E” stood for encrypted.

I don’t understand how public agencies, receiving public funds, are getting away with encrypted, non-public, stuff like this. Is it possible to obtain the encryption key through a public records request? Has anyone tried it? And is it possible to program the SDS100 with the encryption key to monitor those channels?

Police agencies who use encryption aren’t getting away with anything. It’s up to each agency to “sell” the idea of encryption to the voters. When the police want to use encryption they ask their radio vendor to incorporate it. If there’s money in the budget they don’t need to ask for more so it’s never on the floor for a vote at a town meeting and the next thing you know you can’t hear them on a scanner. So, it’s up to the voters to enquire if their police agency is anticipating the use of encryption BEFORE it’s incorporated if they have an objection to encryption. That can be done at the monthly town meetings. Once the question is asked, the agency in question must respond truthfully. In the case a purchase of an entirely new radio system is being considered it’s put on the docket (because the expenditure is large) and needs to be voted on. Encryption can be discussed at that time simply by asking if encryption is included in the new system proposed. It’s up to the voters to examine each line item expenditures on a proposed budget and vote the budget up or down. And that’s where it gets iffy. The town may have other items that are favorable and the budget passes in its entirety, which includes the purchase of an encrypted system. In some towns, if the budget is voted down more than once, the last proposed budget is passed. (It’s not always the case, some towns will revert to the previous last years budget going forward.) Each town can have their own rules so it’s on you as a voter to stand up and ask. You DO have a say. So, contact your town council chairman and make an inquiry. If full time encryption is already in operation there’s not much to be done, the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. But partial encryption may be an alternative to those towns who do run fully encrypted full time. And they may agree to partial encryption after discussion at a town meeting. RR differentiates between the fully and partial by an upper case E and a lowere case e, upper case is fully and lower case is partial or part time. That’s the best of both worlds. You aren’t hearing anything of a proprietary nature anyway as the police are probably using another mode to communicate such as cell phones or MDT’s which are both proprietary modes (encrypted) of communication, to let their police officers know for example, which rock the house key is hidden under outside of a residence with a bed-ridden citizen in need of help, or when a stakeout operation is running… they don’t want the bad guys to know they are being watched. Hope this helps you understand why encryption is in use. In my town the PD does not encrypt. Instead they use MDT’s (Mobile Data Terminals). And while there is a multitude of information transmitted over the MDT’s, the routine traffic is still in the clear on their dispatch frequencies, stuff such as motor vehicle accidents, road closures, etc. My guess is the police have a list of what can be transmitted in the clear and what’s not, a list they add to as needed.

 

[ofd8001]

I don’t understand how public agencies, receiving public funds, are getting away with encrypted, non-public, stuff like this. Is it possible to obtain the encryption key through a public records request? Has anyone tried it? And is it possible to program the SDS100 with the encryption key to monitor those channels?

Right, wrong or in the middle, encryption will be used when desired. Nothing can be done to make your scanner hear the conversations.

Your only hope might be to apply enough political pressure for a "middle of the road" solution. That being the agency to host a delayed feed, which is one that re-broadcasts the communications a period of time later, such as 15 minutes.

 

[n1chu]

Nope… that won’t work.. For the obvious reason that some information will remain proprietary for extended periods of time, possibly with no end date in mind. Certain types of data needs to be protected, at least that’s what we are told. And the reasons stated for that protection sound reasonable so we make the exception. The compromise (if it comes to that) comes in the form of part time encryption where the sensitive proprietary stuff remains private. But one very real concern with part time encryption, is it’s susceptible to human error. Forgetting to turn on the feature is a very real possibility. One that can be eliminated entirely by full time encryption.

While I see no problem with discussing HOW or WHY encryption is used, im afraid the admins of this site may take a wide brush to the topic at hand and kill the discussion altogether. True, it’s not a gripe session about our not being able to hear what’s scrambled but it’s coming damn close. So I have made my last post on the subject. I fear we are skirting the topic a bit too closely. Thanks to all and the admins.

 

[ofd8001]

Nope… that won’t work..

Your attention is invited to this: Jefferson County Kentucky Live Audio Feeds

Please note the entries for the Louisville Metro Police Channels 1, 2, 3 and 4 which are all encrypted.

 

[n1chu]

Your attention is invited to this: Jefferson County Kentucky Live Audio Feeds

Please note the entries for the Louisville Metro Police Channels 1, 2, 3 and 4 which are all encrypted.

I was referring to a suggested delay transmission… which won’t work. Simply waiting a given amount of time does not necessarily change the information transmitted from sensitive to acceptable to transmit in-the-clear.

 

[ofd8001]

I was referring to a suggested delay transmission… which won’t work. Simply waiting a given amount of time does not necessarily change the information transmitted from sensitive to acceptable to transmit in-the-clear.

LMPD 1-4 are delayed. That’s the main dispatch stuff. Sensitive things are on other channels. So it can be made to work.

 

[n1chu]

LMPD 1-4 are delayed. That’s the main dispatch stuff. Sensitive things are on other channels. So it can be made to work.

So, if their dispatch channels are all encrypted full time, why would they bother to delay an encrypted transmission? The delay suggestion was offered in the context of how they might be able to transmit in-the-clear, sensitive information. And THAT is what I meant by “Nope… that won’t work.”

 

[ofd8001]

Main dispatch info is sensitive for a short time. Keep bad guys from knowing they are coming, etc. 20 minutes later it’s all over with.

A balance between transparency and not revealing too much at wrong time.

 

[AK9R]

I think the OP's problem has been resolved.