Proxy Check In Getting Me Down

[ThomasMcKean]

Hi guys...

Does anyone know any rules about proxy check ins? How can yew check in when yew are not actually there to check in?

This is done (at least around here where I live) to fudge the numbers for net check ins. They can't numbers the honest way, so they cheat. It drives me NUTS.

Is the an acceptable practice? Seems to me if yew are turning in official numbers that such a thing would be frowned upon by ARRL and the FCC both. But people around here tell me that it is perfectly acceptable.

Is this true? Am I just an old out of touch fuddy duddy or is this not kosher? I am exploring this a bit to see what I can find out? Anyone have any facts? Or even opinions pro or con?

 

[Jimru]

Hi guys...

Does anyone know any rules about proxy check ins? How can yew check in when yew are not actually there to check in?

This is done (at least around here where I live) to fudge the numbers for net check ins. They can't numbers the honest way, so they cheat. It drives me NUTS.

Is the an acceptable practice? Seems to me if yew are turning in official numbers that such a thing would be frowned upon by ARRL and the FCC both. But people around here tell me that it is perfectly acceptable.

Is this true? Am I just an old out of touch fuddy duddy or is this not kosher? I am exploring this a bit to see what I can find out? Anyone have any facts? Or even opinions pro or con?

Hi,

I don't know about rules per se, but I have participated in ARES nets that did just what you are talking about.

It makes no sense to me, either. If I could not participate, I didn't participate, period! What I might do is let my EC know that I could not check in, as a courtesy.

If you can't check in, you aren't in the net, period.

 

[ThomasMcKean]

Hi,

I don't know about rules per se, but I have participated in ARES nets that did just what you are talking about.

It makes no sense to me, either. If I could not participate, I didn't participate, period! What I might do is let my EC know that I could not check in, as a courtesy.

If you can't check in, you aren't in the net, period.

Yes. This is my point of view as well. But the older neocons who live around here tell me I am full of it. Sigh.

 

[Jimru]

Yes. This is my point of view as well. But the older neocons who live around here tell me I am full of it. Sigh.

Really? The old timers? That surprises me, actually.

 

[ThomasMcKean]

Really? The old timers? That surprises me, actually.

Me too. But they will do anything it takes to the net numbers up apparently.

 

[Jimru]

Me too. But they will do anything it takes to the net numbers up apparently.

Wow! Thomas, in my case, I don't feel that anyone was trying to fudge numbers. At least, I've never looked at it that way.

Instead, it was more just a matter of people not caring much about it one way or the other, but maybe I was wrong!

 

[ThomasMcKean]

Wow! Thomas, in my case, I don't feel that anyone was trying to fudge numbers. At least, I've never looked at it that way.

Instead, it was more just a matter of people not caring much about it one way or the other, but maybe I was wrong!

Yew may be right. Or yew may be right about it where yew are. But I am pretty certain that here where I am it is all about the numbers. There is evidence that points in that direction. It may be different in your situation.

 

[Jimru]

Yew may be right. Or yew may be right about it where yew are. But I am pretty certain that here where I am it is all about the numbers. There is evidence that points in that direction. It may be different in your situation.

Oh, it could very well be that's the case in your neck of the woods, no doubt!

Like I said, it may have been the case where I used to live, too. I just never thought about it in those terms until you brought the subject up.

I'd be interested to see if others around on RR have had similar thoughts, too.

 

[AK9R]

Rules about net check-ins? Who would make these rules? The FCC certainly has no rules about it as long as your transmissions comply with the rules for transmitting in the amateur bands.

I'm also not aware of any rules in any ARES manual about proxy check-ins.

If an individual net manager or net control operator wants to take proxy check-ins, it's up to them. I've seen it done on some local nets usually in the form of "This is N9ABC checking in and KB9XYZ is sitting here with me."

My personal opinion is that proxy check-ins shouldn't be counted, but I don't believe there are any hard and fast rules against it. If the practice is "getting you down", frankly, I think you may need to find something else to worry about.

 

[ecps92]

Occurs on many NET's not just Amateur.

MARS, CG Aux etc

Someone might have to leave early from a Prior net and asks to be checked in to the later Net [they had intentions], also folks Checking in, for someone else in the Car/Bldg with them etc

I don't think it is about fudging Numbers

Rules about net check-ins? Who would make these rules? The FCC certainly has no rules about it as long as your transmissions comply with the rules for transmitting in the amateur bands.

I'm also not aware of any rules in any ARES manual about proxy check-ins.

If an individual net manager or net control operator wants to take proxy check-ins, it's up to them. I've seen it done on some local nets usually in the form of "This is N9ABC checking in and KB9XYZ is sitting here with me."

My personal opinion is that proxy check-ins shouldn't be counted, but I don't believe there are any hard and fast rules against it. If the practice is "getting you down", frankly, I think you may need to find something else to worry about.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Yes. This is my point of view as well. But the older neocons who live around here tell me I am full of it. Sigh.

I'm not sure why the political label is relevant.

By definition, a conservative should value ethical and honest behavior and reporting (although it's obvious that most politicians who assert that label value neither).

 

[DaveNF2G]

I think there is a big difference between checking someone in who is physically present with the operator making the transmission and listing checkins from people who are not even on the air.

 

[RBMTS]

I wouldn't say that this is a situation where people are trying to "fudge" their numbers. No group has anything to gain by having more check-in's. There is no prize and it isn't a race.

Around this area many people belong to different groups (including myself). There are times that we can't physically check-in to every net personally as they may occur at the same time. However we may be on the air earlier and authorize someone to check in for us. OR - perhaps we do a Winlink check-in via a digital mode. Either way we are exercising our radio equipment, readiness, and participation.

I suppose the rule of thumb here is not to worry about what others are doing as you don't know the specifics of how they run their group and what path they walk to get to the ultimate goal. You can always contact the group's leadership and ask them what constitutes a proxy check-in. If it really bothers you then try to become part of the leadership of that group and change the rules. But until that time it would be best to allow the groups to do what they want as it is their group. Remember - this is all about people having a desire to help when it is needed and to enjoy the hobby in the meantime - so don't get too wrapped around the axle with policies that a group may set.

 

[Jimru]

I think there is a big difference between checking someone in who is physically present with the operator making the transmission and listing checkins from people who are not even on the air.

That's how I feel, Dave.

Don't get me wrong, guys, I have never lost any sleep over this issue, but still, for a readiness net, such as ARES or MARS, it just never made sense that someone who just isn't there, and not participating, can "check in".

Again, I don't let my bowels get in uproar over it!

 

[rapidcharger]

I guess the reason yews have to check in by proxy is because they would have to be uprooted from their location out in the garden and then brought into the shack where they would be dropping soil and foliage on the floor along the way and once they got up to the microphone they wouldn't say a peep because yews don't have mouths.

 

[Jimru]

I guess the reason yews have to check in by proxy is because they would have to be uprooted from their location out in the garden and then brought into the shack where they would be dropping soil and foliage on the floor along the way and once they got up to the microphone they wouldn't say a peep because yews don't have mouths.

Yews have mouths, but they are busy chewing grass or some such.

However, in Brooklyn, "youse" could be a collective, such as a ham club. They may even have a few "youts" as members...

 

[rapidcharger]

Yews have mouths, but they are busy chewing grass or some such.

However, in Brooklyn, "youse" could be a collective, such as a ham club. They may even have a few "youts" as members...

Or they might be talking about the Miami pronunciation for people who practice Judaism?
Or the Pittsburgh pronunciation for youse which would be yinz.

 

[AC2OY]

Yews have mouths, but they are busy chewing grass or some such.

However, in Brooklyn, "youse" could be a collective, such as a ham club. They may even have a few "youts" as members...

LOL that's good that movie still makes my eyes water!! When that one lawyer comes out!! The look on Herman Munster(Fred Gwynn) face....LOL

 

[ThomasMcKean]

Ummm....

I see I need to clarify. I was not clear in what I was trying to say. Forgive me and allow me to try again.

Now a lot of times proxy check ins will be people prior to the net who get on the radio or call the net controller and ask to be checked in during the net because for whatever reason they will not be available. My research the past few days has changed my opinion somewhat regarding this case. I think I may be okay with it provided it is a regular check in.

However, there are two other cases I can think of off the top of my head.

1) Check in after the fact. In this case, someone will, say, 1/2 to maybe 2 hours following the END OF THE NET, request be checked in and will be and they will then be added to the numbers and the official count. I do not think this is appropriate. Your opinion may vary.

2) We had an occasion once where the net controller was talking to a ham out of the state on the telephone and he noticed it was getting time for the net. He asked the out of state person if he wanted to be checked in and the guy said YES. Now keep in mind this is someone who has never checked into the net before, and likely WILL NEVER check in to the net in person in the future. Unless this net decides to start doing echolink check ins. (That's a whole separate ball of wax. I personally have no problem with echolink check ins but others do.) To check in someone so far removed from the net by proxy just to add to the numbers (and the reason I keep saying "add to the numbers" is because the net controllers have admitted as much more than once) is seriously bad practice. In my opinion. Again, yours may vary.

But situations like the above are what I am asking about. I hope this helps to clarify?

 

[n5ims]

Part of the issue here locally is that to qualify for renewal for RACES certification to participate in SkyWarn nets they must participate in a minimum number of unrelated nets/activities. (Quote below is from Requirements - Dallas RACES). This may have some folks fake participation in those activities by proxy to allow them to keep "current" to allow them to continue SkyWarn net access.

Annual Renewal Requirement
These vary by city.

1. Continue to meet BASIC requirements.
2. Monitor a minimum of twelve (12) RACES training nets within Dallas.
3. Participate as a communicator as follows: A minimum of three consecutive hours in at least one approved special event (special events must be approved by your Radio Officer), simulated emergency net or under drill or controlled net conditions or an emergency net other than a SKYWARN net. Or, participate in an alternate activity approved by your RACES Radio Officer.

One legitimate use of this type of check in is when several hams are traveling together and check in as a group. This not only speeds up the check in process, but associates their calls together so the net control can more easily associate a response by any of them as being from the call or ID they have associated for that group.

This is especially valid while storm spotting when the roles within that group (e.g. driver, spotter, radio operator, etc.) change to keep folks fresh. That doesn't relieve the operator from reporting the change to net control (e.g. This is Bill, WX2ABC taking over for Joe, WX2ZYX with the spotter team on I-95 near North Podunk ID).