R5 Crew Net/R5 Frequency Changes

[es93546]

I posted a thread last fall in which I stated a new tactical (Tac 7 - 167.9625) would be added in Region 5 (most of California and small parts of Oregon and Nevada). Formerly NIFC Tac 2 (168.2000) was known for decades as "R5 Crew Net." Its use conflicted with national direction, which was that NIFC frequencies were to be used on Type 1 (most complex) and Type 2 (a little less complex) incidents only. R5 was not in compliance with this directive for at least 5 years. R5 Tac 7 was created to bring the region into compliance.

I've now taken a look at some information for the 2024 season, specifically channel plans for each National Forest. Tac 7 is labeled as "R5 Crew Net" on 3-4 channel plans and every forest that had NIFC Tac 2 in their plan has R5 Tac 7 now. There are no exceptions. 2-3 forests don't have any of the R5 tacs loaded in the primary channel groups, but are probably in other groups. So it's official! Some forests, for example, the Cleveland have all of the 4 regional tacs in their primary groups and assign them to individual ranger districts for their initial attack tacs.

It would be best to program in all 4 of these tacs to listen to the initial attack phase of fires and other incidents. If you don't have room just put in Tac 7 and you will get some traffic on about 14 or 15 of the 18 National Forests in R5.

As I review the information I have I will add any other 2024 changes on this thread.

 

[es93546]

I should pass along that R5, with half the fire workload of the U.S. Forest Service, now has 4 regional tacticals and most regions only have 1-3. The database now has all 4 listed.

 

[vince48]

I posted a thread last fall in which I stated a new tactical (Tac 7 - 167.9625) would be added in Region 5 (most of California and small parts of Oregon and Nevada). Formerly NIFC Tac 2 (168.2000) was known for decades as "R5 Crew Net." Its use conflicted with national direction, which was that NIFC frequencies were to be used on Type 1 (most complex) and Type 2 (a little less complex) incidents only. R5 was not in compliance with this directive for at least 5 years. R5 Tac 7 was created to bring the region into compliance.

I've now taken a look at some information for the 2024 season, specifically channel plans for each National Forest. Tac 7 is labeled as "R5 Crew Net" on 3-4 channel plans and every forest that had NIFC Tac 2 in their plan has R5 Tac 7 now. There are no exceptions. 2-3 forests don't have any of the R5 tacs loaded in the primary channel groups, but are probably in other groups. So it's official! Some forests, for example, the Cleveland have all of the 4 regional tacs in their primary groups and assign them to individual ranger districts for their initial attack tacs.

It would be best to program in all 4 of these tacs to listen to the initial attack phase of fires and other incidents. If you don't have room just put in Tac 7 and you will get some traffic on about 14 or 15 of the 18 National Forests in R5.

As I review the information I have I will add any other 2024 changes on this thread.

Greetings,
Is it possible to show your current list?

 

[officer_415]

For the database, should I change the description to "Region 5 Tac 7 - Crew Net" and then deprecate the old R5 Crew Net/NIFC T2?

 

[NorCalrescue]

For the database, should I change the description to "Region 5 Tac 7 - Crew Net" and then deprecate the old R5 Crew Net/NIFC T2?

On all fire channel lists we receive, these channels are simply referred to as "FS R5 T4, FS R5 T5, FS R5 T6, FS R5 T7." There's no additional moniker such as "Crew Net" attached to any of our provided documents. Hope that helps!

 

[officer_415]

On all fire channel lists we receive, these channels are simply referred to as "FS R5 T4, FS R5 T5, FS R5 T6, FS R5 T7." There's no additional moniker such as "Crew Net" attached to any of our provided documents. Hope that helps!

Tac 7 is labeled as "R5 Crew Net" on 3-4 channel plans and every forest that had NIFC Tac 2 in their plan has R5 Tac 7 now. There are no exceptions.

It sounds like R5 T7 is used internally by USFS as the R5 Crew Net, so the question still stands for @es93546

 

[es93546]

Greetings,
Is it possible to show your current list?

The database is current.

 

[es93546]

On all fire channel lists we receive, these channels are simply referred to as "FS R5 T4, FS R5 T5, FS R5 T6, FS R5 T7." There's no additional moniker such as "Crew Net" attached to any of our provided documents. Hope that helps!

The R5 Frequency Guide shows "R5 Crew Net" on 3-4 of the 18 National Forests in California.

 

[es93546]

For the database, should I change the description to "Region 5 Tac 7 - Crew Net" and then deprecate the old R5 Crew Net/NIFC T2?

No, the old R5 Crew Net of 168.2000 is NIFC Tac 2. All you have to do is remove "R5 Crew Net" from any listing of 168.2000. This frequency should only be listed in the context of the NIFC Radio System. So NIFC Tacs 1-6 contain the old R5 Crew Net frequency as NIFC Tac 2, however, R5 National Forests no longer have any NIFC frequencies in the primary channel groups.

 

[officer_415]

No, the old R5 Crew Net of 168.2000 is NIFC Tac 2. All you have to do is remove "R5 Crew Net" from any listing of 168.2000. This frequency should only be listed in the context of the NIFC Radio System. So NIFC Tacs 1-6 contain the old R5 Crew Net frequency as NIFC Tac 2, however, R5 National Forests no longer have any NIFC frequencies in the primary channel groups.

NIFC Tac 2 is already listed here. If it no longer has a specific allocation in Region 5 (as a crew net or IA tactical), then it should be removed from the California USFS page.

The R5 Frequency Guide shows "R5 Crew Net" on 3-4 of the 18 National Forests in California.

I'm confused. If R5 Tac 7 is labeled as "R5 Crew Net" in the frequency guide, shouldn't that be added to the description in the DB?

 

[es93546]

NIFC Tac 2 is already listed here. If it no longer has a specific allocation in Region 5 (as a crew net or IA tactical), then it should be removed from the California USFS page.



I'm confused. If R5 Tac 7 is labeled as "R5 Crew Net" in the frequency guide, shouldn't that be added to the description in the DB?

If none of the other NIFC frequencies are listed in the California database then 168.2000 should be removed.

As for you confusion, remember that 2-3 National Forests describe R5 Tac 7 as "Crew Net," but that leaves 15 National Forests that do not list it as "Crew Net." So it's a toss up as to how to describe in the DB. I would come down on the side of labeling it "Crew Net" for now, but I would like to hear how it is described in local dispatches (Inyo NF) and other radio traffic this summer/fall. If I always hear "R5 Tac 7" then I could submit a database update to drop the "Crew Net" description.

 

[officer_415]

Thanks, DB updated.

 

[es93546]

Here are the air tanker base coordinating frequencies:

122.675 Chico, Columbia, Fox Field, Grass Valley, Hemet, Hollister, Mojave, Redding, Santa Maria, Siskiyou, Sonoma
123.975 Bishop, Chester, Paso Robles, Porterville, Ramona, Fortuna, San Bernardino, Ukiah
122.825 McClellan

These are current for this year.

A memo last year from NIFC stated that every air tanker base in the country was going to be on 122.675 as of fire season 2023. I assume they had some type of agreement for that from the FAA. It appears that agreement fell through. The FAA seems to be a bit squirrely with their frequency assignments.

When I look at that list, a total of 20 air tanker bases, it appears that there are more retardant bases, making the use of the "SuperScooper" less than ideal. Even if there are lakes closer than some of these bases, the difference using retardant (more effective) versus fewer minutes from a closer lake with just water is not worth it. The "Superpooper" as it is often called, was designed for Canada, where retardant bases are few and far between with a ton of lakes everywhere. The media seems to be in love with the Pooper, leading the public to have a tainted view on this subject.

 

[officer_415]

Here are the air tanker base coordinating frequencies:

122.675 Chico, Columbia, Fox Field, Grass Valley, Hemet, Hollister, Mojave, Redding, Santa Maria, Siskiyou, Sonoma
123.975 Bishop, Chester, Paso Robles, Porterville, Ramona, Fortuna, San Bernardino, Ukiah
122.825 McClellan

These are current for this year.

Wow, looks like they're really consolidating into fewer victor frequencies. Do those replace these assignments (from 2022)?

135.975 Ramona, Porterville, Hollister, Santa Maria
135.575 Bishop, Fox, Hemet
128.475 Columbia, Paso
128.250 Chester, Siskiyou
127.325 Grass Valley, Ukiah
124.775 Chico
122.575 Santa Rosa
118.950 Fortuna, Fresno, Redding
136.000 San Bernardino

 

[norcalscan]

Wow, looks like they're really consolidating into fewer victor frequencies. Do those replace these assignments (from 2022)?

135.975 Ramona, Porterville, Hollister, Santa Maria
135.575 Bishop, Fox, Hemet
128.475 Columbia, Paso
128.250 Chester, Siskiyou
127.325 Grass Valley, Ukiah
124.775 Chico
122.575 Santa Rosa
118.950 Fortuna, Fresno, Redding
136.000 San Bernardino

No. Tanker Base freqs that ExSmoke was talking about are used for base ops and coordination with incoming aircraft to the base. You'll hear aircraft come up on the freq 10-20mi out saying they're on load and return 10min out, negative or positive fuel etc. It let's the ramp crew know to prep for them. Also visiting aircraft will come up to know what parking spot at the base to park on, etc. Think of it as a combination Approach/Ground Control for the air base itself, completely separate from the airport's radios.

The freq list you posted is still valid but a totally different purpose. Those are the initial attack incident victor frequencies for any new starts. It acts as a fallback to FM air tactics radios, used primarily for rotorwing coordination over the fire if more than one is assigned, and can be used by general aircraft (media) to hail the air attack over a fire traffic area to coordinate transiting across/around the fire. The freqs aren't "assigned" to those bases, but are actually assigned to geographic sectors. Those bases are just the primary air base serving a particular sector. A neighboring sector's primary victor can be your sector's secondary victor, etc.

 

[es93546]

Wow, looks like they're really consolidating into fewer victor frequencies. Do those replace these assignments (from 2022)?

135.975 Ramona, Porterville, Hollister, Santa Maria
135.575 Bishop, Fox, Hemet
128.475 Columbia, Paso
128.250 Chester, Siskiyou
127.325 Grass Valley, Ukiah
124.775 Chico
122.575 Santa Rosa
118.950 Fortuna, Fresno, Redding
136.000 San Bernardino

In addition, I haven't noted a decrease in the number of frequencies available for this use. The 2024 map for this looks the same as it was 3-4 years ago. In listening to these frequencies over the years these AM Victors tend to be used for initial air traffic control, as provided by the Air Attack (Air Tactical Group Supervisor) on each fire. These are strictly initial attack frequencies and new temporary assignments must be obtained for Day 2 and beyond. The extended attack frequencies are authorized by the FAA with NIFC coordinating with them on those assignments. There might be, but I don't recall completely, some held in reserve by the GACC (Geographic Area Coordinating Center) that they can assign without NIFC authorization. These reserve frequencies are subject to change each year and are coordinated between NIFC and the FAA during the winter.

 

[officer_415]

No. Tanker Base freqs that ExSmoke was talking about are used for base ops and coordination with incoming aircraft to the base. You'll hear aircraft come up on the freq 10-20mi out saying they're on load and return 10min out, negative or positive fuel etc. It let's the ramp crew know to prep for them. Also visiting aircraft will come up to know what parking spot at the base to park on, etc. Think of it as a combination Approach/Ground Control for the air base itself, completely separate from the airport's radios.

The freq list you posted is still valid but a totally different purpose. Those are the initial attack incident victor frequencies for any new starts. It acts as a fallback to FM air tactics radios, used primarily for rotorwing coordination over the fire if more than one is assigned, and can be used by general aircraft (media) to hail the air attack over a fire traffic area to coordinate transiting across/around the fire. The freqs aren't "assigned" to those bases, but are actually assigned to geographic sectors. Those bases are just the primary air base serving a particular sector. A neighboring sector's primary victor can be your sector's secondary victor, etc.

In addition, I haven't noted a decrease in the number of frequencies available for this use. The 2024 map for this looks the same as it was 3-4 years ago. In listening to these frequencies over the years these AM Victors tend to be used for initial air traffic control, as provided by the Air Attack (Air Tactical Group Supervisor) on each fire. These are strictly initial attack frequencies and new temporary assignments must be obtained for Day 2 and beyond. The extended attack frequencies are authorized by the FAA with NIFC coordinating with them on those assignments. There might be, but I don't recall completely, some held in reserve by the GACC (Geographic Area Coordinating Center) that they can assign without NIFC authorization. These reserve frequencies are subject to change each year and are coordinated between NIFC and the FAA during the winter.

Thanks guys. I didn't realize the air tanker base coordinating frequencies were different from the victor frequencies.

 

[officer_415]

If you guys concur, I'll update the CAL FIRE database page as follows:

123.975 "CDF B Victor" should be split into the following Tanker Base frequency assignments:

122.675 Chico, Columbia, Fox Field, Grass Valley, Hemet, Hollister, Mojave, Redding, Santa Maria, Siskiyou, Sonoma
123.975 Bishop, Chester, Paso Robles, Porterville, Ramona, Fortuna, San Bernardino, Ukiah
122.825 McClellan

The "Air Attack Base" frequencies should be updated with the following Initial Attack Victor frequency assignments:

135.975 Ramona, Porterville, Hollister, Santa Maria
135.575 Bishop, Fox, Hemet
128.475 Columbia, Paso
128.250 Chester, Siskiyou
127.325 Grass Valley, Ukiah
124.775 Chico
122.575 Santa Rosa
118.950 Fortuna, Fresno, Redding
136.000 San Bernardino

 

[es93546]

If you guys concur, I'll update the CAL FIRE database page as follows:

123.975 "CDF B Victor" should be split into the following Tanker Base frequency assignments:



The "Air Attack Base" frequencies should be updated with the following Initial Attack Victor frequency assignments:

I must be losing my mind, I thought I made a DB submission, but apparently not!

 

[es93546]

I have on my list of things to do is updating the Wiki to show the current version of the primary channel group for each National Forest. There are a lot of changes to the R5 Tactical frequencies, especially in light of the addition of R5 Tac 7. Summer is here and I have tons of work to do outside while the weather at 8,000 feet allows, so this will be of a lower priority. Please be patient!