Railroad right of way question

[drdeputy]

Once upon a time I was a deputy sheriff walking near tracks which led from a prison farm because there was an escape. Being within 20' of a passing train in the dead of night and nowhere to go was a memorable experience I'd rather not repeat. Reasonable distance as suggested (and legal) is where any of us should be.

 

[rrman987]

Is there a standard distance from the nearest track that you can stand, watch or film a train from that would be legal without trespassing on railroad property?

My rule of thumb is to parallel line myself up with where the crossbucks/flashers/gates are, then step back away from there.
Also you don't want to be close to tracks in case a metal or fiberglass strap holding lumber breaks free and flails in air like a sword blade.
War story: Right after 911, I was in park waiting with camera for train, when I was acosted by a dumb a** cop who threatened to arrest me for taking RR pictures ON RR property (really RR property went 100 feet into park?). He said just turn around away from tracks. So I left and found an even better picture area!!

 

[RRR]

The crossing signal cases are on Railroad property as well. Several feet further back from the signs and signals, yet still within the Railroad's property.

There is no real "Rule of thumb" if you really want to know, a simple GIS search will usually reveal property lines.

But Railroads sure do own a lot of fields, structures, and parking lots as well.

 

[cr8054]

Thanks I see people making videos of trains and they are using a scanner and the crew calls them in for filming them. I also was thinking is it legal to video a switch man switching tracks? I would imagine by law you would need somekind of release also. Sorry I'm rambling but the last thing I want to do is bring down the law just to get some video lol?

If you are on public property, they are not supposed to blow you in. Remember this, if you are on railroad property, you are an uninvited guest at the very least so be on your best behavior. Take only photo or video and leave only footprints. I would say you should be at least 6-8 feet away from the edge of the tracks. The further, the better. Remember, trains and have metal bands, chains and other nasty things dragging off the side of the train. A metal band at speed becomes like a razor blade and can cut limbs right off or could cut you in half. The railroad is a dangerous place so it is best to stay on public property if you can.

 

[cr8054]

Union Pacific tells fans of their steam program to stay at least 20-25 feet from the rails. This is a result of a serious incident a few years ago when a fan was too close as a UP steam train came through.

Railroad right-of-way is private property in the case of railroads that are privately owned. In general, if you are filming from a public sidewalk, a public street/road, or non-railroad private property that you have permission to use, and you are a sufficient distance from the tracks, there's not much the railroad can do. The crews may not like you being there and they may call you in, but they can only run you off of their property. If the police show up, you will have to explain what you are doing and they may want you to not obstruct whatever public property you might be on. Under many state laws, a grade crossing between a railroad and a public highway is technically railroad property, so keep that in mind, too.

Also note that railroad crews will become unfriendly to you if they think you are catching them doing something against the rules. Your images or video posted on social media could be used against them if railroad management sees your work. There's a railroad YouTuber that I occasionally see posting videos of moving trains while he's pointing a radar gun at the train to see how fast it's going. I can't imagine that the crews who see him along the line holding a radar gun are very happy about that.

I am sure they are not happy. They might think he is a weed weasel (railroad management looking for rules violations) and that certainly will not endear him to train crews. I just dont get the reflective vest / radar gun types. When I was working for the railroad, I couldn't wait to take the PPE off.

Yeah it's crazy

I've had some experience with these matters, and a lot of things depend on other things.

First of all, the railroads and their employees may not like being videoed and photoed.

I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy being recorded at work.

But if one is legally permitted to be where one is when the images are being captured, they can't stop one from capturing images.

If railroaders were law enforcement, it might be different.

Secondly, the UP director of safety told me 25 feet from the nearest rail is the boundary on each side.

This applies whether a train is present, absent or imminent, if one is standing or moving in a direction other than to cross the space as quickly as possible.

One can legally stand as close as the crossing gates even if they are closer than 25 feet to the nearest rail.

As for the police, your mileage may vary.

The police I've interacted with only care whether you're breaking local laws, and railroad trespassing is not one near the top of their list.

On the other hand, even if one is carefully observing the railroads' rules, police will still enforce parking and vehicular law at the location.

One day I had a UP guy in a hy-rail stop and tell me I legally couldn't come closer than 25 feet to a rail, anytime, anywhere.

I asked him, how can I ever cross a grade crossing if I can't come closer than 25 feet?

The very next day at a different location, the same guy told me I had to stay 50 feet away at all times.

Another time a contractor crew was working at the crossing, the foreman walked up and said I was trespassing while legally parked and walking on a city street.

He threatened to call the railroad police if I didn't immediately leave the area .

I told him to go ahead.

Nothing happened.

Be careful out there.

One thing I learned early in choo choo U was this one quote: Expect a train at any time, any rail, in any direction. Its one thing a rail enthusiast should take to heart.

 

[cr8054]

Just some food for thought, check grade crossings for new spots. They cant blow you in if your standing on a public street. Parking lots may be another place for taking pictures or video.

 

[fourgres]

BEST you get permission from the RR to do photos, filming etc. we have a permission card from BNSF to do the same, carry it with you at all times. Railroad dicks are NOT people to deal with. As stated above USE all safety precauitons. Also local police may stop and ask questions.

 

[Kitn1mcc]

BEST you get permission from the RR to do photos, filming etc. we have a permission card from BNSF to do the same, carry it with you at all times. Railroad dicks are NOT people to deal with. As stated above USE all safety precauitons. Also local police may stop and ask questions.

i just looked on there website they say nothing about needing a permission card


What is BNSF's position on photography of railroad operations?


BNSF appreciates its railfan photographers and thanks them for their interest in BNSF and its trains. For safety reasons, BNSF can't grant access to its property for photography purposes. Photography of BNSF operations must be done from a safe location outside of railroad property.
Encounters between BNSF police and photographers are generally casual in nature and not documented unless there is a criminal violation or circumstance that would warrant further law enforcement action or enforcement. BNSF Police reinforce guidance on this issue to officers in the field so that continues to be common practice.
We value the support the rail community provides to our officers and rely on their continuing understanding that the intent of any contact by police is part an effort to further the safety of our railway and the communities where we operate.

 

[N9JIG]

BNSF has a "Friends of BNSF" program. It is basically a card with a phone number to call if you saw something unusual, the program was geared towards railfans. They are very specific that it did not provide any privileges to enter the property or trespass.

https://www.bnsf.com/in-the-community/friends-of-bnsf.page

 

[UPCoffeyvilleSubMain2]

No, permission from the RR isn't required to capture video or photos while standing on public property.

 

[WX4JCW]

and another example was the Poopshow in Folkston at Winter Watch last week

 

[k6cpo]

Thanks I see people making videos of trains and they are using a scanner and the crew calls them in for filming them. I also was thinking is it legal to video a switch man switching tracks? I would imagine by law you would need somekind of release also. Sorry I'm rambling but the last thing I want to do is bring down the law just to get some video lol?

For years, photographers have been accosted by police and other infrastructure personnel because they are viewed as potential terrorists studying a location for a possible attack.

When in doubt, find an overpass with a sidewalk for pedestrians and take all the pictures you want. You may have to shoot between
the wires in a barrier on some of them but it's doable and above all, legal. (Got some great shots of the Tokaido Shinkansen train during
a layover in Nagoya a few years ago.)

As a long-time zoo photographer, I know it's possible to shoot through wire in such a manner as to make the wire invisible. Get as close as possible to the wire, shoot subjects that aren't close to the wire and use the largest aperture possible to keep the wire out of focus.

 

[kg6nlw]

For years, photographers have been accosted by police and other infrastructure personnel because they are viewed as potential terrorists studying a location for a possible attack.

One can point that to the issues raised from 9/11 and the implementation of the Patriot Act.

Regards,

-Frank C.

 

[AK9R]

For years, photographers have been accosted by police and other infrastructure personnel because they are viewed as potential terrorists studying a location for a possible attack.

Which leads me to ask, has there ever been a terrorist attack against a freight railroad in the U.S.?

About the worst I hear in my small neck of the woods is thieves breaking into trailers or containers on standing intermodal trains to liberate the sometimes high value contents, mostly consumer electronics or auto parts.

But, that sort of thing has been going on for something like 50 years. Avon Yard (NYC-PC-CR-CSX) in Indianapolis used to receive TOFC traffic from Jeffersonville, Indiana, that contained liquor or cigarettes from Kentucky. Those trailers were always watched very closely while in the yard because the local thieves knew what was there.

During my railroad "career" (1977-82) I also heard stories of box cars of beer or wine from the west coast showing up in Indianapolis yards with doors open. In one story, the railroad police investigated and found a trespasser hiding behind a stack of boxes in the car. There was also a story from many years ago of a tank car of (cheap) wine that had sprung a leak. That car didn't sit in the yard for very long before the locals showed up with buckets to "mitigate" the potential hazardous material spill.

IOW, people have been stealing stuff from trains for years. It's an illegal act and should be prosecuted. I would never categorize this activity as an act of "terror". A Google search for "terrorist attack freight railroad in usa" results in lots of hits about government and industry action to prevent such an act, but not many news stories of such attacks ever happening.

 

[kf8yk]

Which leads me to ask, has there ever been a terrorist attack against a freight railroad in the U.S.?

The activists sabotaging railways in solidarity with Indigenous people

People coming to the aid of the Wet’suwet’en nation to stop a pipeline are using direct action that is prompting terror charges

www.theguardian.com

20 Years Later, Sabotage Of Amtrak's Sunset Limited Still A Mystery

In October 1995, a passenger train was bound for Los Angeles. But it never reached its destination. The train derailed in the Arizona desert, killing one and injuring dozens — and it was no accident.

www.npr.org

 

[W7GEL]

Well... the train station in town the yellow line is like 18 inches ... that is way closer then I would want to stand filing. Now maybe a well weighted tripod I guess wouldn't be so bad.... Not sure the station agent would yell at you or not but took plenty of video on my phone.

I Do know of 1 situation where an idiot setup a camera between 2 tracks and thought it would be ok to film there and almost was killed as a 2nd train was coming from the other direction.. station agent told me they have minimal distance at that corner and the dude was a few seconds away from getting turned to mush..

I feel the best thing is be smart about it.

 

[KD3Y]

Thats going to depend a lot on the circumstances and local law. Here in NC, CXS and NS were deeded the property for the tracks plus 15 feet on either side in 1902, I believe it was. They own the property the rails sit on all over the state consisting of the land under the rails and 15 feet on either side. There was an issue several yeras ago where the railroad closed the railroad crossing on a busy street to replace the crossing, then something wasn't available they needed to fix it and they kept the road closed for nearly a month waiting on whatever it was to be delivered. The Mayor sent the railroad a letter saying that city ordinance made it a city offense to close a street crossing without a city permit and if it wasn't fixed within some deadline he gave them, the city was going to start fining CSX $250 per day until the crossing was open. The railroad attorney replied in writing something to the form of, "Dear Mayor, CSX transportation owns the railroad crossing and the land 15 feet on either side, and in fact, Royal Avenue which runs parallel to our tracks is on CSX property. If you do not cease and desist, CSX will bring in our earth-moving equipment and we will remove Royal Avenue from our property." It was all crickets from the mayor after that.

Usually railroad property is clearly marked with signage. I had to contact CSX several years ago and have a railroad police officer escort me to take pictures at the CSX railyard for the railroad clubs werbsite. After 9/11 you'll certainly get unwanted attention from the law if you're in a place you shouldn't be and taking photos. I'd do as I did and contact the railroads police department if you want to take photos, even from legal right of way. Otherwise they'll likely show up and "check you out" to make sure you aren't a terrorist or saboteur or something.

While you can legally take photos from public right of way anywhere except in certain areas like a military base or if you're in the way of a LE investigation, you'll surely get attention from the law if you don't advise someone in authority what you're doing before hand when it comes to photographing railroads, ports, important buildings, bridges, etc.

I think though that "innocent trespass" is hardly ever enforced. I see kids walking on the railroad tracks here in town every day walking home as the schoo is right beside the railroad tracks, which is illegal. When I was a cop I'd advise the kids it was trespassing and asked them to leave railroad property until I was "strongly advised" by my supervisor to leave them alone, that's the railroad police's problem not mine. Unless the rairoad police notifies the locals about vandalism or theft on RR property the locals don't really care from what I've experienced.

 

[kg6nlw]

I'd do as I did and contact the railroads police department if you want to take photos, even from legal right of way. Otherwise they'll likely show up and "check you out" to make sure you aren't a terrorist or saboteur or something.

With the limited workforce the RRPD has nationwide across all RR's, they aren't going to waste their time. We can't even get them to come out when we find open containers!

Regards,

-Frank C.

 

[KD3Y]

With the limited workforce the RRPD has nationwide across all RR's, they aren't going to waste their time. We can't even get them to come out when we find open containers!

Regards,

-Frank C.

They most likely obliged me as it was a formal written request and a request from a 501(c)(3) organization doing a publication. You're right though, they probably wouldn't even get out of their seat for regular old "Joe Blow railfan".

Of course my visit to the railyard was 2 decades ago. Probably a lot different now. If I remember, my request was to the CEO of CSX, so he might have made some calls to oblige where the CSX PD Chief woud've ignored my request. Still wouldnt hurt to notify them to establish a record so if anything ever comes up later (like one of those open containers), it would help clear you and maybe give your "I don't know nuthin" story a tad of credibility.

 

[kg6nlw]

They most likely obliged me as it was a formal written request and a request from a 501(c)(3) organization doing a publication. You're right though, they probably wouldn't even get out of their seat for regular old "Joe Blow railfan".

Of course my visit to the railyard was 2 decades ago. Probably a lot different now. If I remember, my request was to the CEO of CSX, so he might have made some calls to oblige where the CSX PD Chief woud've ignored my request. Still wouldnt hurt to notify them to establish a record so if anything ever comes up later (like one of those open containers), it would help clear you and maybe give your "I don't know nuthin" story a tad of credibility.

Agreed, a lot of things have changed post-2001...Yeah if you get ahold of the right people it helps.

Regards,

-Frank C.