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Scanning trunked networks question.

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modernsnipe14

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Hello All,

I have a big question. I am slowly getting the hang and understanding of trunked groups and how to program it for scanning. I have mastered getting the talk groups and control channels in but I am struggling to understand how you figure out a base freq, channel spacing, and offset when programming in these groups. I would really appreciate if someone could help me understand how these work.

Thanks in advance!
W2ORT
 

jonwienke

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What scanner, and what kind of system? For newer scanners and P25, the scanner gets that off the control channel, and you don't need to worry about it.
 

modernsnipe14

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What scanner, and what kind of system? For newer scanners and P25, the scanner gets that off the control channel, and you don't need to worry about it.

Im using a Harris XG-100P that I do Non-affiliate Scan with. I have one trunked system I can operate on as well as a lot of Conventional stuff but I am trying to scan more trunked systems.
 

modernsnipe14

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sonm10

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we need more information like where you are from, what systems you are trying to program, what radios you are using
Also software is the easiest way to program the radios
 

modernsnipe14

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we need more information like where you are from, what systems you are trying to program, what radios you are using
Also software is the easiest way to program the radios

I already said what radio I am using... a Harris XG-100P with non-affiliate scan. And I am trying to monitor the Central New York Interoperable Communications Consortium. And I do have the software to program it I am simply trying to learn how to obtain a base freq, offset, and spacing because the article posted above doesnt make much sense to me and I was asking if there was a generic, easy way to find that information out based off the information provided in the databases.
 

Project25_MASTR

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95% of the time that information is provided OTA via the control channel. If available, it can be decoded via Unitrunker and a RTL-SDR dongle. If that information is not being advertised, then you have to calculate it by hand using OTA information from something like Unitrunker. P25 subscribers don't think in terms of direct frequency. They think in terms of channel ID and channel number simply because it takes less data to convey the same information.

For example, say a system has a channel ID 1 with a base frequency of 851.0125 MHz using a -45 MHz offset and 12.5 kHz channel spacing. The control channel will announce some talk group ID GOTO 1-0235. The subscribers affiliated on that talk group ID will then translate that using their channel ID database as 235 12.5 kHz channels from 851.0125 MHz, subtract 45 MHz to transmit...or (235*.00125+851.0125)=851.3063 MHz to receive and 816.3063 MHz to transmit. In this case, 851.3063 takes 3 bytes (24 bits) of information to transmit, so 48 bits if you want to include the offset frequency, where 01-0235 takes only 10 bits to transmit for nearly 5 times less info to convey the same info.

You can work this backwards if the channel ID info is not being announced once you locate the control channel. Using Unitrunker you can obtain the control channel's ID and channel number as well as other channels on the system (I'd go with alternate control channels). From there, it's just a little bit of math to reverse engineer things due to the fact there are really only a handful of channel widths (2.5 kHz, 6.25 kHz and 12.5 kHz commonly) so simply divide those by the channel number to find how far you are from the base frequency and use another channel with the same channel ID to test your calculated base frequency to see if the channel frequency matches up with the known control channel frequency or licensed frequency.
 

mikewazowski

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I have seen that and I tried making sense of it but it all seems gibberish to me... Is that article saying i need software or a scanner to find the base freq or can i determine all the information from information provided RR Databases?

Yes, you need software or a scanner to figure out the band plans.

Since RR mainly caters to scanners that read that information off the control channel where possible, that info isn't kept in the database.
 

slicerwizard

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For example, say a system has a channel ID 1 with a base frequency of 851.0125 MHz using a -45 MHz offset and 12.5 kHz channel spacing. The control channel will announce some talk group ID GOTO 1-0235. The subscribers affiliated on that talk group ID will then translate that using their channel ID database as 235 12.5 kHz channels from 851.0125 MHz, subtract 45 MHz to transmit...or (235*.00125+851.0125)=851.3063 MHz to receive and 816.3063 MHz to transmit.
235 times 1.25 kHz? I have to admit that I'm rather surprised that anyone would think that a channel center at 306.3 kHz was valid.
 
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