SDS100/SDS200: SDS 100 - Department Quick Keys vs ID Search Conflict

[W4WMH]

I have a SDS Running 1.21 FW. I have a multi site EDACS system that is being replaced by a P2P25 system. During this switchover, I noticed some TG's were missing compared to my WS1065. I put the radio in ID Search mode for this system, and now the radio is holding on TG's that I assigned to a Department Quick Key and toggled off. What good are Quick Keys if you turn them off, and the radio doesn't honor that and just puts up the TG info with no Text like it's a brand new talk group? I noticed it does the same thing if you turn off service types.
Is this a bug, or am I using the radio incorrectly? I want to be able to turn certain TG's on & off using QK's, while listening to & finding new TG's at the same time. It doesn't seem like the radio is able to do this.

 

[nessnet]

...... "I put the radio in ID Search mode" .........

That is exactly what ID search mode is.
ANY channel grant on the control channel will be heard - if you have that service type enabled.
It is the way people find new talkgroups.

ID Scan is when you only hear what TGs you have programmed.
If I am not mistaken, the QKs are tied to the programmed TGs.

 

[W4WMH]

That is exactly what ID search mode is.
ANY channel grant on the control channel will be heard - if you have that service type enabled.
It is the way people find new talkgroups.

Thanks for your reply. My curiosity is this. If it's an ID'd talkgroup for the dogcatcher or gas district, in this case say TG 01-101 & 01-110, and I put them in Department #8, with service type Public Works, and then toggle #8 off, the scanner just shows 01-101 & 01-110, with no service type listed. Service type doesn't even affect locked out groups at this point, because I've toggled off Public Works service type, and still get stuck listening to the dog catcher and gas company monkeys.

So what is the proper procedure to turn off those TG's when I don't want to hear them, while being able to hear new TG's that the TRS adds from time to time, as well as temporary patches and some I-Calls? Only way i've found to do this is ID-Search, but then the radio ignores all other settings.

I can nuisance delete them, and they will stay gone, but then if there's something obviously interesting happening, it's not very easy to turn Department #8 back on in a hurry.

Just seems like it defeats the logical purpose of how it all ties together.

 

[ofd8001]

When you are ID Searching, there is no Service Type coming in when "fresh" talkgroups are detected. By "fresh" I mean they are not already in the scan list (locking out a department eliminates them from the scan list I believe.) When you accept or Enter that newly discovered talkgroup, then you can add Service Type. Another way of saying this is that "Service Type" is not information that is included in the data stream received by the scanner. Rather, Service Type information is something handled for known talkgroups programmed in the scanner.

Being frank you are wanting to do two things at once that kind of oppose each other, kind of like being the pitcher and catcher at the same time. When you are searching, your main priority is finding new channels. The contrasted with scanning, where you can access channels more quickly through Number Tagging.

Turning a Department on quickly should be easy enough through Quick Keys - Channel to stop scanning, enter the Quick Key sequence, then Channel again.

One thing to bear in mind. Using talkgroup ID 1111 as an example, which is programmed in Department #8. If you avoid/turn off Department #8, and do an ID Search and 1111 shows up and you hit Avoid, you are telling the scanner you do not want to listen to talkgroup ID 1111. So if you turn on Department #8 I think the scanner will disregard 1111 because you have told it you do not want to listen to it. (As in sending mixed signals to the scanner.)

One option available to you, though somewhat cumbersome is to duplicate the System, have one iteration of it for general scanning and the second iteration for searching.

 

[hiegtx]

Thanks for your reply. My curiosity is this. If it's an ID'd talkgroup for the dogcatcher or gas district, in this case say TG 01-101 & 01-110, and I put them in Department #8, with service type Public Works, and then toggle #8 off, the scanner just shows 01-101 & 01-110, with no service type listed. Service type doesn't even affect locked out groups at this point, because I've toggled off Public Works service type, and still get stuck listening to the dog catcher and gas company monkeys.

So what is the proper procedure to turn off those TG's when I don't want to hear them, while being able to hear new TG's that the TRS adds from time to time, as well as temporary patches and some I-Calls? Only way i've found to do this is ID-Search, but then the radio ignores all other settings.

I can nuisance delete them, and they will stay gone, but then if there's something obviously interesting happening, it's not very easy to turn Department #8 back on in a hurry.

Just seems like it defeats the logical purpose of how it all ties together.

ID Scan is only going to receive talkgroups that are programmed, as long as they are not (a.) set as Avoid (or, the old term, 'locked out', or (b.) in a Department that is set as Avoid. (That applies regardless of whether the individual TGID is Avoided; if the Department is set as Avoid, the scanner should skip the talkgroup.)

ID Search will stop on any active talkgroup, as long it is not Avoided, and it is not in a Department set as 'Avoid'. Talkgroups that are programmed will show the text tag entered for them. TGIDs that are not yet programmed will only show the TGID. As ofd noted, Service types play no part in TGIDs displayed when found by using ID Search.

I have not run into this specific behavior. However, I'm curious as to whether merely having the TGID in a Department that is not enabled (via the quick key) is not triggering the scanner to treat it as Avoided. (It is not recognizing the Department as 'Avoided', since the TGID is entered, and the Department is only being ignored because the quick key is not enabled.)

Try marking that specific department as Avoided, & see if that makes a difference in behavior. If my suspicion is correct, that may also be why a programmed TGID, that is in a department that is disabled via the Quick Key (but not Avoided)) is treated as a 'new' TGID by ID Search, and displays without a text tag.

I presume you are monitoring this EDACS system, which is being replaced by this new P25 system. So far, there are only two TGIDs listed for the new system. However, if the pattern I'm seeing is correct, you should be able to convert all the old EDACS talkgroups to the new P25 system's format.

 

[Ubbe]

It only compares found TG's with avoided TG's and departments and not turned off by QK or GPS, that just poke that QK flag, or by other means.

Lets assume that it would compare to everything in a system and treat turned off the same as avoided, it seems logical enough. Would that have any negative side effects? It would need to load that switched off department into memory and set it as avoided. It can never unload them as it does now to save memory space and resources and don't need to check those departments. So it is probably deliberately done this way. Maybe it isn't a huge performance loss and can be changed to include everything in a system to be checked while in IDSearch mode. Suggest to JoeBearcat to consider to include that change in the wish list. I would vote for that change to take place, as it so far seems logical to me.

-- QK Off for a TG department only sets the permanent avoid to On and keeps the department loaded in memory (QK On sets it to unavoided)--

/Ubbe

 

[W4WMH]

ID Scan is only going to receive talkgroups that are programmed, as long as they are not (a.) set as Avoid (or, the old term, 'locked out', or (b.) in a Department that is set as Avoid. (That applies regardless of whether the individual TGID is Avoided; if the Department is set as Avoid, the scanner should skip the talkgroup.)

ID Search will stop on any active talkgroup, as long it is not Avoided, and it is not in a Department set as 'Avoid'. Talkgroups that are programmed will show the text tag entered for them. TGIDs that are not yet programmed will only show the TGID. As ofd noted, Service types play no part in TGIDs displayed when found by using ID Search.

I have not run into this specific behavior. However, I'm curious as to whether merely having the TGID in a Department that is not enabled (via the quick key) is not triggering the scanner to treat it as Avoided. (It is not recognizing the Department as 'Avoided', since the TGID is entered, and the Department is only being ignored because the quick key is not enabled.)

Try marking that specific department as Avoided, & see if that makes a difference in behavior. If my suspicion is correct, that may also be why a programmed TGID, that is in a department that is disabled via the Quick Key (but not Avoided)) is treated as a 'new' TGID by ID Search, and displays without a text tag.

I presume you are monitoring this EDACS system, which is being replaced by this new P25 system. So far, there are only two TGIDs listed for the new system. However, if the pattern I'm seeing is correct, you should be able to convert all the old EDACS talkgroups to the new P25 system's format.

So in regards to using a department avoid as opposed to a quick key on / off, is there a key sequence that can be used to avoid a Department quickly similiar to the 01.01.08 "Yes" keystroke command I use now? I suppose I could avoid in Sentinel ahead of time, but then I couldn't reenable that department very quickly.

It only compares found TG's with avoided TG's and departments and not turned off by QK or GPS, that just poke that QK flag, or by other means.

Lets assume that it would compare to everything in a system and treat turned off the same as avoided, it seems logical enough. Would that have any negative side effects? It would need to load that switched off department into memory and set it as avoided. It can never unload them as it does now to save memory space and resources and don't need to check those departments. So it is probably deliberately done this way. Maybe it isn't a huge performance loss and can be changed to include everything in a system to be checked while in IDSearch mode. Suggest to JoeBearcat to consider to include that change in the wish list. I would vote for that change to take place, as it so far seems logical to me.

-- QK Off for a TG department only sets the permanent avoid to On and keeps the department loaded in memory (QK On sets it to unavoided)--

/Ubbe

Ubbe, you hit the nail on the head with how I had thought the Quick Keys, GPS, and ID Search should work together. I had read the "Easier to Read" version, and it covered a lot of detail on how Quick Keys work, and had about 2 sentences on how to turn on / off ID Search mode. It did not have any warnings about one function degrading performance of the other, and I wondered If I was implementing it wrong, or how to optimize both functions together.